Wikipedia:Deletion review
Deletion discussions |
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Speedy deletion |
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For RfCs, community discussions, and to review closes of other reviews: |
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Discussion about closes prior to closing: |
Deletion review (DRV) is for reviewing speedy deletions and outcomes of deletion discussions. This includes appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.
If you are considering a request for a deletion review, please read the "Purpose" section below to make sure that is what you wish to do. Then, follow the instructions below.
Purpose
Deletion review may be used:
- if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;
- if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed;
- if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page;
- if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted; or
- if there were substantial procedural errors in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion.
Deletion review should not be used:
- because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment (a page may be renominated after a reasonable timeframe);
- (This point formerly required first consulting the deleting admin if possible. As per this discussion an editor is not required to consult the closer of a deletion discussion (or the deleting admin for a speedy deletion) before starting a deletion review. However doing so is good practice, and can often save time and effort for all concerned. Notifying the closer is required.)
- to point out other pages that have or have not been deleted (as each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits);
- to challenge an article's deletion via the proposed deletion process, or to have the history of a deleted page restored behind a new, improved version of the page, called a history-only undeletion (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these);
- to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion;
- to argue technicalities (such as a deletion discussion being closed ten minutes early);
- to request that previously deleted content be used on other pages (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these requests);
- to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed);
- for uncontroversial undeletions, such as undeleting a very old article where substantial new sources have subsequently arisen. Use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. (If any editor objects to the undeletion, then it is considered controversial and this forum may be used.)
- to ask for permission to write a new version of a page which was deleted, unless it has been protected against creation. In general you don't need anyone's permission to recreate a deleted page, if your new version does not qualify for deletion then it will not be deleted.
Copyright violating, libelous, or otherwise prohibited content will not be restored.
Instructions
Before listing a review request, please:
- Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
- Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.
Steps to list a new deletion review
If your request is completely non-controversial (e.g., restoring an article deleted with a PROD, restoring an image deleted for lack of adequate licensing information, asking that the history be emailed to you, etc), please use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. |
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{{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~ |
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Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:
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For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach |
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Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:
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Commenting in a deletion review
Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:
- Endorse the original closing decision; or
- Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
- List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
- Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
- Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
- Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.
Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:
- *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~
- *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~
- *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~
- *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~
- *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~
- *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~
- *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~
Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.
The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.
Temporary undeletion
Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}}
template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.
Closing reviews
A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.
If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:
- If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
- If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.
Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)
Speedy closes
- Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
- Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
- Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
- Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".
14 May 2024
User talk:216.15.18.224
This page was speedily deleted under G6 midway through an MfD discussion in which multiple editors had argued in favour of keeping it. The deletion was therefore not uncontroversial maintenance
, and is (in my view) out of process. In my opinion, the page should be undeleted, and the MfD reopened to finish running its course. All the best, —a smart kitten[meow] 15:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
13 May 2024
janno Lieber (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Disputed closure of bio article. 170.167.196.16 (talk) 15:58, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
12 May 2024
'phone
Seems like a flawed nomination. See wikt:'phone. 1234qwer1234qwer4 17:40, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
Endorse regretfullyAllow recreation. We need a good reason to delete a redirect, especially for a word that appears in the dictionary, and no such reason was provided by the Delete !voters on that RfD. But the closing admin correctly read the consensus. In a WP search for 'phone, the "Telephone" result doesn't even appear in the top 200 results. This was a correct, but unfortunate closure that should now be amended. Owen× ☎ 18:17, 12 May 2024 (UTC)- Allow recreation for how long its been since the RfD Mach61 18:19, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- There is no need to formally review a 17 year old XFD. Just recreate it and if someone has an issue, a new discussion can happen. Star Mississippi 00:34, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- My understanding of this nomination is that it's per WP:DRVPURPOSE #3, as otherwise a recreation of this redirect would potentially be liable to be G4ed. All the best, —a smart kitten[meow] 00:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- You may very well be correct, but I've seen that applied to maybe 17 month old discussions. Nothing of this vintage. No sane patroller is going to scream G4 at a 2007-era discussion. Oh wait, don't we have a 20 year old one here now? Oops Star Mississippi 02:03, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- My understanding of this nomination is that it's per WP:DRVPURPOSE #3, as otherwise a recreation of this redirect would potentially be liable to be G4ed. All the best, —a smart kitten[meow] 00:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Overturn[Send to RfD after Stifle's comment]. The participants made the wrong arguments based on a wrong understanding of the facts and the outcome is wrong. The RfD should be voided leading to undeletion. It doesn't matter how old it is.—Alalch E. 12:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)- Allow recreation as a plausible redirect. The closer correctly interpreted consensus, but the nomination was flawed. Frank Anchor 13:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Question - Are we being asked to overturn a 17-year-old close, or to allow recreation? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Allow Recreation subject to a new RFD. There has to be a time limit on deletions of redirects. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep deleted. It would be an unlikely/implausible redirect; nobody types that into search. Stifle (talk) 07:28, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Allow recreation. In my opinion, the existence of wikt:'phone demonstrates the plausibility of this as a redirect. No need to send directly to RfD from deletion review, as any editor who wishes to start an RfD may do so. All the best, —a smart kitten[meow] 10:52, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Ami Dror (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
This is a extremely contentious Afd that was closed by the admin with a simple keep as though they were closing an Afd opened by mistake. None of the problem inherent in the Afd discussion were addresed. From the canvassing at the beginning, to the the whole course of the keep !votes being based on false premises, hand-waving and wilful (supposed) ignorance of policy, particularly ignorance of the WP:O Note d, i.e. the idea that interviews can prove a person notable. These arguments have been given false creedence that has lead to a false keep !vote. It should have been delete, or at the worst no consensus. Now we have been left with a group that thinks its ok to use interviews to prove notability. I think the whole thing feels staged. scope_creepTalk 13:52, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
Robert McClenon (talk) 17:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
11 May 2024
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The argument that the article do not meet WP:SUSTAINED has not been attended by the closer. There are no reliable sources on the article subject other than within the last 2 months in 2023, and no such sources were presented during the deletion discussion. More on it at User talk:Cocobb8#Bogdan Khmelnitsky Battalion . ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:30, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Meets notability guidelines for being an incredibly well-known cosmetics brand and considering the high level of controversy at this year's Eurovision Song Contest, the sponsorship of which by Moroccanoil is a major contributor of, an article is definitely both topical and necessary. Kapitan110295 (talk) 04:11, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
10 May 2024
Draft:Kashana Cauley
This draft was nominated under WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE, and - after the discussion had been open for over a week - it was procedurally closed by a non-admin after their moving of the draft to mainspace. As I mentioned on the closer's talk, I believe that this was a bad close for several reasons:
- I don't believe that it was fair towards the nominator or the discussion's participants for the (reasonably well-attended) MfD to have been procedurally closed based on a move that occurred some time after the discussion had started (in addition, I would question whether it's appropriate to move a draft currently at MfD to mainspace at all, given that this could effectively short-circuit/nullify any discussion that had already taken place). I see this as especially true due to the fact that, in this situation, the same rationale - WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE - applies regardless of the discussion venue.
- Given the split of opinions expressed by editors in the MfD, I believe that this was a WP:BADNAC - i.e., that
[t]he outcome [was] a close call...or likely to be controversial
, and so the MfD should therefore have been closed by an administrator. (I'd also argue that closing this discussion asprocedural close
was likely to be controversial in and of itself.) - The closer was involved with regards to the page in question, having edited the draft and accepted it/moved it to mainspace. I disagree with the closer's assertion that their involvement
does not matter...because the close is of a procedural type
- there is nothing in WP:PROCEDURAL that excludes such closes from the requirement to be uninvolved, and I don't believe that this is an appropriate situation to IAR.
I therefore believe that the closure should be overturned, and the page moved back to draftspace pending the outcome of the MfD. All the best, —a smart kitten[meow] 11:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse own procedural close. The close was a mere recording of an objective fact that the discussed page is no more from the standpoint of MfD. There had been a draft and then the draft was no more, so there's nothing to do in an MfD. That's not a close call or a non-close call, it's not a call. There is no dispute in which I might be involved. The AfC accept was not an outcome of the MfD discussion. The mainspacing comes fist in time and in the logic of things. The close is just a recording an objective fact that came first, indpendently from the MfD. I could, in my independent capacity, and I did, accept the submission because the submission is okay, and that is for an AfC reviewer to decide, not for MfD, as MfD is not a venue to review pending AfC submissions. A running MfD does not suspend AfC, and does not transform drafting from an optional to an obligatory apparatus. Once the move is performed WP:DRAFTOBJECT applies and the only recourse is AfD. I notified the concerned subject at User talk:Blacksun83#Article instructing her to start an AfD if they wish.—Alalch E. 11:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Following this logic, if there was an AfD open, and someone unilaterally moved it to draft during the discussion, would that mean that the AfD would need to be procedurally closed as "the discussed page is no more from the standpoint of [AfD]. There had been a[n article] and then the [article] was no more, so there's nothing to do in an [AfD]"? I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with unilateral page moves to render a discussion mid-way through moot. Daniel (talk) 12:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- It isn't symmetrical. Drafting is an optional mechanism, subservient to the encyclopedia in the narrower sense (the article space). Article space takes precedence and is where the matter of what pages constitute the encyclopedia gets truly settled. It would not be appropriate to move to draftspace during a running AfD, but it is appropriate to mainspace during a running MfD. MfD discussions about deleting drafts quickly stop making sense when editors in good standing (multiple in this case) start believing that the page should not be a draft but an article. That's generally when MfD should stop and AfD should start. MfDs to delete drafts are for very problematic pages that exist as drafts for which no one thinks they are worthy of article space, and the issue is whether it's sufficiently important and purposeful to delete those drafts before G13 kicks in (often a pretty esoteric question and often useless to even contemplate). When a reasonable AfC submission is made and editors exist who believe that not only should the page not be deleted, but that it should be an article (entirely different from merely not deleting the draft which is independent from the issue of whether that page will ever become an article), that transforms the nature of the dispute: It's not about whether to delete quicker than the natural course of things dictates, it's about whether to have or not to have a particular article in the encyclopedia, which is an issue of article deletion/retention, and is no longer a topical matter in an MfD. —Alalch E. 12:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Following this logic, if there was an AfD open, and someone unilaterally moved it to draft during the discussion, would that mean that the AfD would need to be procedurally closed as "the discussed page is no more from the standpoint of [AfD]. There had been a[n article] and then the [article] was no more, so there's nothing to do in an [AfD]"? I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with unilateral page moves to render a discussion mid-way through moot. Daniel (talk) 12:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Procedural close this and start a fresh AfD. WP:BADNAC is there to prevent adjudication by those who don't have the tools, the experience, or the trust of the community to close such discussions. However, in this case, no adjudication was required. The closer merely informed participants that the MfD was now moot, as the closer has already moved the article to mainspace. Yes, it was the same closer who moved the page from draft to mainspace, but they did so rigorously following our AfC guidelines. Since no adjudication was required in the procedural close of the MfD, the issue of WP:INVOLVED is also of no practical bearing. Had Alalch E. accepted the AfC and asked a fellow editor to close the MfD, the result couldn't have been any different. Such an extra step seems redundant, although it's fair to ask whether it should be followed for appearances' sake.
- Should the AfC have been accepted while the MfD was open? A case could be made for withholding AfC acceptance until the MfD (which was already open for nine days!) was closed, although I don't see any such requirement in our policies. But what would be the benefit of such a delay? Deleting the draft would not create a G4 basis for deleting a subsequent mainspace article anyway. And with sourcing that meets our BLP policy, any editor, including the original author of the draft, would be rightly encouraged to recreate the article for an apparently notable person. Which brings me to my recommendation of withdrawing this DRV, and starting a fresh AfD for the article, ideally notifying all the participants of the MfD. Once deleted in mainspace, recreation will be restricted based on our policies, which is the remedy the appellant and the subject of the article are seeking. Owen× ☎ 12:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse Hi, I am the subject of the article as well as the nominator, and I think this outcome was fair to me, the person who made the deletion request in the first place, for reasons I will explain below. I became aware that there was a draft about me when I started to be deluged by scammers who wanted me to pay them to rewrite it and get it accepted. It got so bad that I took my publicly available email off the internet, but they still kept coming. I figured I had two options to try and get them to stop contacting me: I could try to get the article deleted, or I could try to get it accepted. Acceptance seemed complicated and less favorable, since I honestly thought the draft should have been accepted in the first place, since my novel was selected for two things: indies introduce and indie next, that are an enormous deal in the book world. So when it was declined, I realized I didn’t know what qualified for wiki acceptance, or even how to go about trying to get acceptance without running afoul of the conflict of interest guidelines. Requesting a deletion seemed like the more straightforward option, so I tried that. I was well aware that I might be deemed notable over the course of the review, since my novel has enjoyed even more of the non-interview, secondary coverage you all prefer here since the first version of the article was submitted. I have looked over the accepted article and think it is accurate, and a fine article to have on Wikipedia. Having an accepted article will also make the scammers who want me to pay to get an article accepted lose interest in emailing me all the time, so it is also, in my opinion, an ok option, and an outcome that fulfills my original goal of defeating the scammers. I obviously cannot speak for all the people involved in the other discussion, and for all I know, if the article is kept an entirely new type of scammer may fall out of the sky, but the outcome of all of this is an article I approve of. Thank you, User talk:Alalch E.. Blacksun83 (talk) 13:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- You're welcome. You're also welcome to suggest changes to the article on its talk page, especially as new independent reliable sources emerge in the future, enabling more comprehensive coverage. I'm sorry about your experience with the scammers. The best way to protect Wikipedia from disruption from the scammers is to keep our processes sane and clean and keep priorities straight at all times. —Alalch E. 13:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Will do! Thanks again! Blacksun83 (talk) 14:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- You're welcome. You're also welcome to suggest changes to the article on its talk page, especially as new independent reliable sources emerge in the future, enabling more comprehensive coverage. I'm sorry about your experience with the scammers. The best way to protect Wikipedia from disruption from the scammers is to keep our processes sane and clean and keep priorities straight at all times. —Alalch E. 13:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
IAR Deletewhich I am fully aware isn't an answer here. When you have a draft that the subject does not want, for myriad reasons, moving it to mainspace because you can is not what should be done especially when consensus at MfD is trending toward deletion. This is not what is intended by draftspace being optional.So within policy, move back to draft space where there are fewer eyes on it, and let the MfD run. If consensus changes, AfC can be determined. Star Mississippi 13:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)Leaving the first part, which was less about this situation and more in general of procedure. But in light of the subject's comment (thanks both for the heads up) I guess my BLP comment is moot. To closer: please don't let my comment stand in the way. Star Mississippi 14:10, 10 May 2024 (UTC)- Please take a look at the comment by the user who says they are the subject and who had originated the BLPREQUESTDELETE left in this DRV: Special:Diff/1223182504/1223192509 —Alalch E. 14:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment as appellant: Following the comment here by the article's subject, I no longer seek this page's deletion/moving back to draftspace. I'm not closing this review as withdrawn, as I still believe that the closure was procedurally erroneous given the information available at the time (and so stand by my request for its review), as other editors have commented on the issue of moving the draft to mainspace mid-MfD, and as I can't speak for all of the participants who !voted
delete
in that discussion. That being said, I'd like to apologise to Blacksun83 for the somewhat drawn-out process that this has become, and for any part I've played in that - and I hope that this puts an end to you being contacted by the scammers. All the best, —a smart kitten[meow] 14:00, 10 May 2024 (UTC)- No worries, and thank you. Blacksun83 (talk) 14:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse Procedural MfD close. Whether moving something from draft to mainspace while an MfD is in process is procedurally appropriate is a separate question, but an MfD can't delete a mainspace article, full stop, so the close was proper. Separately, the article subject appears notable based on the coverage in the article at the time I write this, so regardless of what it looked like before, it almost certainly should not be deleted on the basis of subject request, because LPI/NPF is for edge cases and does not apply to someone who unequivocally meets notability criteria. We should explore other ways besides deletion to help the article subject minimize disruption brought on by becoming "notable" in Wikipedia's eyes. Jclemens (talk) 15:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse procedural MFD close per above. Anyone can start an AFD on the newly mainspaced article if they so choose. Frank Anchor 16:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse procedural MfD close given Blacksun83's comments here and their withdrawal of their nomination in the MfD. If people wish to take it to AfD I'm sure they can work it out. TarnishedPathtalk 06:16, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse as moot per Blacksun83. For the record the procedural close was clearly wrong at the time it was made, though. * Pppery * it has begun... 19:09, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Involved Endorse - I originally !voted to Delete, based on the request of the subject, and now support retention of the article based on the changed opinion of the subject, as well as the marginal notability of the subject. The closer was right in closing the MFD based on the changed circumstances. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- We're currently at a good outcome where the deletion rationale no longer applies, so this is basically moot. However, I have a big problem with a procedural close of an MfD after the user procedurally closed it had accepted it at AfC, therefore being involved, and while quite rare, would have !voted to overturn on those grounds if the deletion rationale still existed. SportingFlyer T·C 03:38, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
9 May 2024
French ship Gapeau (B284)
A contentious AfD closed by a non-admin as a "no consensus / leaning keep", four days after it being relisted. Closing rationale makes it clear the closer was aware of the contentiousness, yet chose to ignore it. I reverted the close as an obvious BADNAC, with a polite notice on the closer's Talk page. The closer chose to lash back at me and re-close. I believe this one is best left for an admin to close, once the seven days since the last relist are up. Owen× ☎ 11:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, OwenX, for misrepresenting me. See my close for full detail. To clarify their points:It was not a particularly contentious topic or discussion, the latter being, while small, always calm. My closing rationale does not indicate otherwise.OwenX may not have refreshed themselves with WP:RELIST, but they are repeating the same error here as they made at my talk: it is explicitly allowed to close before a seven-day period after a relist is up, if a determination can be made. And since that determination can include a determination that no consensus can be reached, there was no early close. More generally, can OwenX dial back the bad faith? I did not "ignore" anything; I did not "lash back" (indeed, I had already reclosed when I saw his message, as I had added a corollary); this language is merely an attempt to present the NAC as knee-jerk, hotheaded action performed in ignorance. It was none of those things; I was not uncivil (unless being wrong is no longer grounds for being told one is wrong. of course).Since their submission here is based solely on the grounds of a non-contentious discussion/topic being a bad nac when there was no such contention, and secondly on a misreading of our relist procedure, I suggest the submission falls. ——Serial Number 54129 11:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Your claim that this was an uncontentious AfD is, on its face, wrong. The nom from Fram was well-reasoned, there was a strong argument for Delete from Oaktree b, and a valid ATD suggested by The ed17. WP:BADNAC clearly tells us:
A non-admin closure is not appropriate in any of the following situations: [...] The outcome is a close call (especially where there are several valid outcomes) or likely to be controversial.
. The fact that you closed it as "no consensus" tells us that this was a close call, making it a BADNAC. The issue of early closure is just the icing on this cake. Owen× ☎ 11:43, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Your claim that this was an uncontentious AfD is, on its face, wrong. The nom from Fram was well-reasoned, there was a strong argument for Delete from Oaktree b, and a valid ATD suggested by The ed17. WP:BADNAC clearly tells us:
- Overturn. Per WP:NACD, deletion-related closes by a non-admin can be reopened by an uninvolved administrator acting in their individual capacity giving their reasoning; which is what seems to have happened here. While OwenX’s reopening can of course be challenged, my impression is that Serial Number 54129 should not have reclosed the discussion after OwenX took an administrative action to revert his previous close. All the best, —a smart kitten[meow] 11:57, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and allow for closure by an admin. The DRV should have happened in lieu of Serial's re-close if Serial believed Owen's re-close was wrong. Owen's re-opening was fine per an unsettled discussion. Star Mississippi 13:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn. I'm not as big on the NAC essay as some of the other people at DRV, but this close is effectively Serial overturning the decision of an administrator unilaterially. Mach61 13:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Speedy overturn obvious WP:BADNAC and allow an admin to close. NACs are limited to discussions that are non-controversial, and a thrice-relisted discussion generally implies there is back-and-forth discussion and reasonable votes on either side. I do think NC is a reasonable outcome here, but should be left to an admin after the recent relist period is completed. Frank Anchor 16:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to allow for an admin closure.
- This close raises the same issue about bad non-administrative closure as other similar closes to come here to Deletion Review, which is when or whether a non-admin may close a deletion discussion as No Consensus. The language in question is
It seems clear to the appellant and to the editors here who are saying to Overturn that a No Consensus call is almost always a close call, because there are almost always at least two valid outcomes. It therefore seems clear to some editors that a non-administrative close of No Consensus is almost always wrong. However, this closer is not the first non-admin to disagree with the overturning of their No Consensus call. Clearly there is disagreement about this information page and the guideline that it interprets. This disagreement should be discussed further at the Village Pump.A non-admin closure is not appropriate in any of the following situations:… The outcome is a close call (especially where there are several valid outcomes) or likely to be controversial.
- In the meantime, this closure was a close call, and the fact that it is here at Deletion Review is a controversy.
- The closer was in particular wrong in reclosing, which is a form of wheel warring.
- This close should be overturned. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- This close raises the same issue about bad non-administrative closure as other similar closes to come here to Deletion Review, which is when or whether a non-admin may close a deletion discussion as No Consensus. The language in question is
- Overturn. A reasonable finding of a lack of consensus in a close by a non-admin is self-defeating because it translates to a reasonable estimation of the situation as a close call... so that editor, a non-admin, should not have closed. It could be argued that an "obvious" 'no consensus' close is not a close call, and in DRV we often see comments of the "obvious 'no consensus' close, no other way to close" type, but administrators can close even "/purportedly/ obvious 'no consensus'" discussions in a particular non-'no-consensus' way, by spotting a rough consensus after all, after weighing the arguments, using perhaps a non-obvious, but valid and acceptable reasoning, and while many such closes are less obvious or may be quite non-obvious, they can still be reasonable (and sometimes quite excellent and illuminating), and these closes would, in the alternative scenario involving the same discussion, also be endorsed—this time not as "obvious, no other way etc etc", but as "could also have been X, but Y is reasonable" or similar. And the latter type of truly contentious closes, that hinge on reasonableness, are obviously totally reserved for administrators. And when a non-administrator closes as no-consensus, even if it's an "obvious" 'no consensus', they eliminate this possibility, and that's not a net positive, because the possibility to get some other outcome should be left available to be exploited by an admin. It's for administrators to explore the realm of possibility and decide whether to make a "safer" or a more "risky" close; the latter is sometimes necessary to move things forward.—Alalch E. 23:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn Any action that would constitute wheel warring if taken by an admin, should, if taken by a non-admin, result in a block and topic ban from the affected process of an appropriate duration. Since DRV isn't the forum to decide that, the non-admin closer should carefully take this under advisement. Revert wars in admin areas or functions are just not appropriate. Oh, and yes, it shouldn't have been non-admin closed in the first place. Jclemens (talk) 01:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Speedy overturn, an uninvolved administrator reopened a debate per DELPRO#NAC in their individual capacity. To then see it re-closed by the same non-administrator is very unusual, and is a non-tools-used form of wheel warring (as Robert M and Jclemens put it above). Daniel (talk) 06:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn as a WP:BADNAC, since an administrative closer could have found for delete, i.e. the close was contentious. Re-closing after the close was vacated was more than just a trout-worthy error of judgment. SportingFlyer T·C 22:40, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
8 May 2024
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
6 May 2024
Woke Mind Virus
Communicated with the closer user:Ganesha811 prior to posting this comment here for deletion review. The closer respectfully disagrees, but has not posited any specific evidence or points to bolster their reason for interpreting the "consensus" as they did beyond stating, "I appreciated your reasoned arguments in favor of keep, but after re-reading the linked policies and considering the !votes for deletion as well as those explicitly for merge, I felt that a merger which retained large parts of the material reflected the overall consensus."
The page Woke mind virus in fact had dozens of sources that were reliable and clearly and unambiguously separated the word "Woke mind virus" out as distinct from woke. More importantly for this deletion review, I feel that the largest body of consensus, both in terms of !votes as well as most importantly in terms of WP policy arguments, all pretty clearly favored a Keep close of the AfD. This is my first time ever requesting a AfD that closed in a manner that I feel was inconsistent with the apparent consensus to be reviewed. It seemed that most recently too near the time of close even more Keep !votes had been emerging, and therefore the close was both premature and not representative of the actual consensus as I understood the varied arguments and commentary. Iljhgtn (talk) 12:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Relist. Policy gives a closing admin a fair amount of discretion in picking a viable ATD over deletion, even when views for the Merge/Redirect option don't receive a rough consensus. Policy gives a closing admin no leeway in picking Merge as an alternative to Keep, when there's no consensus to do so. Even if we view all Delete !votes in this AfD as implicitly supporting a merger - a big stretch of interpretation - there still is no consensus for Merge as the preferred result. I'm on the fence as to whether the closing rationale expresses a supervote, but even if it doesn't, the reading of consensus was wrong, and the close was premature. Owen× ☎ 13:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- That depends on whether you believe merge is a separate option to keep or delete, though. AfD is a yes/no on whether an article qualifies for mainspace - !voting merge is a clear indication that it should not be in mainspace, not a separate category between keep/delete/merge. SportingFlyer T·C 22:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Weak endorse. Either of a "no consensus between keep or merge" or "keep" closure would have been justified, but that doesn't mean this merge closure was bad. That there is some evidence a subject has been discussed in RS does not perclude a merger; that is the point of WP:NOPAGE. With that being said I would have relisted in this case. Mach61 13:35, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to keep Those arguing for merge substantially present WP:JNN or WP:NOPAGE arguments without support, while those arguing for retaining the page as separate provided appropriate sources, including a WSJ. NOPAGE explains that we can choose not to cover a notable topic in its own page, and is among the weakest of p&g-based arguments, because there's no requirement or expectation that we do so. Jclemens (talk) 17:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment (independent of my role as closer): the WSJ article notably conflates the terms "woke" and "woke mind virus" throughout the piece. Rhododendrites and buidhe made related comments during the discussion. —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:09, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment (as closer): I've looked back at my close and subsequent comments to Iljhgtn; I do not think my close was a supervote (my words were intended to reflect the overall consensus), but I think it could plausibly be read that way. I'll have to be more careful to phrase my closes carefully in the future. I think that underlying the issue here is that AfD may not have been the best venue to begin a discussion about the article; a merge proposal on the talk page might have been more successful in getting a clear consensus on whether 'woke' and 'woke mind virus' should be separate articles, as consensus is clear that they are (a) notable term(s) that Wikipedia should be covering in some way. —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Just for the record, while I disagree with your close, I don't think it was unreasonable; I think you just gave too equal weight to some relatively weak merge/redirect rationales. It's far from a tragedy if it appears as part of Woke. Jclemens (talk) 19:54, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'd like to add that I think the additional content that was added to the Woke page by user:Ganesha811 was well written and was a useful contribution to that article which fairly summarized the Woke mind virus article. I just believe that the sources and policy arguments indicate that that contribution should have been made in addition to a Keep of the Woke mind virus article, not instead of. Iljhgtn (talk) 22:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Just for the record, while I disagree with your close, I don't think it was unreasonable; I think you just gave too equal weight to some relatively weak merge/redirect rationales. It's far from a tragedy if it appears as part of Woke. Jclemens (talk) 19:54, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Relist (first preference) or overturn to no consensus (second preference). I don't see a consensus not to keep the article, with policy-based voting on both sides. Delete/merge voters cite WP:UNDUE and WP:NEO, which I believe is reasonably refuted by the keep voters. I feel it is possible for consensus to form with another week of discussion. Frank Anchor 18:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse [involved] - I don't see how you could close this as anything which keeps the article when only one of the keep !voters even acknowledged the chief objection: that it's fundamentally the same subject as woke. Yes, it's notable; as are e.g. "woke mob" and "wokeness" and "wokism", all of which are variations on the same subject, too. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 01:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- No action. Deletion discussions boil down to one of two outcomes, namely delete or not-delete. There is no need to raise DRVs to move from one variant of not-delete (such as merge) to another (such as keep). Such a discussion can be taken forward via the article talk page, if needed. Stifle (talk) 08:24, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to keep or NC. I think either of those outcomes meets with the discussion. For the record, if I'd !voted at the AfD, I'd likely have !voted to merge as we really don't need a FORK here. Hobit (talk) 19:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse While the numbers are close, I still find more comments opposed to keeping the article in the mainspace, and there is no obvious error by the closer. The closer does have some discretion to consider ATDs even if there is not a numerical majority for the ATD. While a relist could be possible, there was strong participation and I am not sure if any new information would be added. --Enos733 (talk) 05:36, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
5 May 2024
Battle of Chenab (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
<The Nominator "Noorullah" has a strong personal bias and had placed my legitimate Wikipedia page for Articles for deletion in which this user "Noorullah" was the only person in discussion. He had mentioned the reasoning for the removal was that the article relied upon only Hari Ram Gupta source and had some copy past to it, however the account of this event is undeniable and is recorded in Sikh History from Persian Sources page 31 which is a contemporary source-https://archive.org/details/SikhHistoryFromPersianSources/page/n43/mode/1up?q=1764&view=theater> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Festivalfalcon873 (talk • contribs) 22:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
File:SEYCGA.png
Deleting administrator did not consider threshold of originality argument posed by me. There were two relicense votes and one delete vote, I do not think that's a consensus to delete.
For the benefit of this discussion, I will paste the argument here:
"The only part that could be above TOO is the flags on either side of the Seychelles flag (I can't tell which one it is), but there isn't much sufficient artistic detail to differentiate it from other drawings of flags. Addition of mere shading does not constitute copyright protection (see File:Arkansas map by Sean Pecor.png)." —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 11:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: It's hard to assess this without actually seeing the file, but it's not clear why you think that the deleting administrator didn't consider your argument. The one "delete" !vote specifically addressed the TOO issue, stating that they believed some elements of the image too complex to be ineligible for copyright protection. The other "relicense" !vote seems have been basically a WP:MEETOO !vote, but file discussions aren't necessary decided by simply counting !votes even if it wasn't. If the file that was deleted is the same one shown on this website, then the two bird elements on each side of the flag do seem (at least in my opinion) to maybe be too close to call, and borderline local files sometimes end up being deleted for reasons similar to c:COM:PCP in order to err on the side of caution if policy-compliant non-free isn't considered possible. Anyway, if you're really quite sure that the file is too simple per c:COM:TOO United States and c:COM:Seychelles to need to be licensed as non-free, then one option would be to simply upload a higher resolution version of the file to Commons under an appropriate PD license because that's really where the file should be hosted if it's really PD. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Marchjuly: This probably isn't below Seychelles TOO since Seychelles was a British colony, so their copyright law is probably modeled under c:COM:TOO UK, which is low. I'm proposing a {{PD-ineligible-USOnly}} relicense if it's not clear. If you want to see the logo to assess yourself, it's similar to this. I think that this design is similar in creativity to File:JeetKuneDo.svg, which was declared by the US copyright office to be below TOO. The birds don't seem to be that creative of a design, and addition of mere shading does not constitute copyright protection. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
uselesscontributions} 17:03, 5 May 2024 (UTC)- None of what you posted above was posted in the FFD; so, I don't think you can really claim the deleting administrator didn't consider any of that; therefore, I also don't think you can claim the close was improper based on the comments that were posted or based on what you've posted above. In addition, I don't think you can really compare the complexity of the two birds shown in the file linked to below by Extraordinary Writ to the Chinese characters used in the Jeet Kune Do file; letters (even some basic kanji scripts/fonts), in general, are typically considered ineligible for copyright protection and the birds are not letters per se even minus the shading. So, once again, I personally don't think they're clearly too simple and therefore PD elements, absent a specific court case stating as much. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:59, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't get my point across well; I was mainly stating that the mere arrangement of the designs itself does not grant copyright protection. As for the bird, it does not appear to be creative. I hate to link to more cases, but I think it is necessary. This fleur-de-lis contains a similar amount of curves, yet it was deemed to be ineligible for copyright protection. Yes, the symbol has existed for a while, but that doesn't mean a derivative work could have gotten copyright protection as it's own rendition. This, combined with the previous argument that addition of shading doesn't provide copyright protection, makes me think this is below TOO.
- Your idea that "non of what you posted above was posted in the FFD" is incorrect, as I posted a summary of my argument here - if someone questioned it I would have been more than happy to elaborate. I think the close lacked a rationale, as the deleting admin should have considered both arguments and provided a justified rationale, or even better relist and see what other editors think, rather that "The result of this discussion was: delete". Hence I would advocate for a relist (since an overturn looks unlikely). —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
uselesscontributions} 15:53, 6 May 2024 (UTC)- My
None of what you posted above was posted in the FFD
was in reference to what you posted in the post right above mine (i.e. "None of that you posted [in the post right] above [mine] was posted in the FFD"). My apologies if that was unclear. Anyway, someone did question your argument in the FFD: the "delete" !vote was posted a day after your comment and the other "keep" !vote were added. The FFD remained opened for three more days after the last comment in the discussion, yet you chose not to elaborate. Trying to do so here seems to be more of an attempt to re-argue the FFD, than argue the close was improper per WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. As for examples of court cases, I'm sure you can provide examples of court cases of other logos/images; unless, however, you can provide one specifically related to these particular "birds" or really similar "bird" imagery, then it's going to be hard (at least in my opinion) to try and directly apply them to this case. -- Marchjuly (talk) 20:51, 6 May 2024 (UTC)- I argued the close was improper (the second paragraph above starting from "I think the close lacked a rationale") but I doubt there are any court cases relating to birds. Guess I'll just let it go looking at the !votes below. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
uselesscontributions} 16:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC)- You participated in a few other FFD discussions listed on that same day as this one, and two of them were closed the same way as this one was closed; moreover, they were closed two days prior to this one being closed. Do you think those two closes should also be reviewed? If not, why? In those two discussions you !voted "delete" and the closes reflected your !votes, whereas in this one you !voted "keep" and the close didn't reflect your !vote. Could that possibly why you felt this close needed to be reviewed? In one of those two discussions your "delete" !vote was
It is unclear whether this rendition of the NZ leaf is below TOO, but I think per the PCP this should be deleted
, and in the other your "delete" !vote wasDelete per nom...Tree is definitely above TOO
. How are your delete !votes any different and any less subjective than the one given in this particular FFD discussion that you describe below as beingmore or less meaningless
? Should your !votes have been given less weight because you didn't include any links to other images or to case studies? If not, why? -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:22, 8 May 2024 (UTC)- I think all this proves is TOO has valid yet different interpretations. In this case at least, I considered that all the elements individually and thought "they're all below TOO", but I underestimated the potential of arrangement by itself to surpass the hurdle, which has been pointed out by a lot of people here. In the other two FFDs, the individual elements by themselves had extremely clear creativity put into them plus the unique arrangement, so I !voted delete. When something has a high creativity or a low creativity, it is pretty obvious (and you can just say it). It is only where there is a middle creativity like this image where it gets a bit murky and it may not be obvious. Cheers, —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
uselesscontributions} 17:26, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think all this proves is TOO has valid yet different interpretations. In this case at least, I considered that all the elements individually and thought "they're all below TOO", but I underestimated the potential of arrangement by itself to surpass the hurdle, which has been pointed out by a lot of people here. In the other two FFDs, the individual elements by themselves had extremely clear creativity put into them plus the unique arrangement, so I !voted delete. When something has a high creativity or a low creativity, it is pretty obvious (and you can just say it). It is only where there is a middle creativity like this image where it gets a bit murky and it may not be obvious. Cheers, —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
- You participated in a few other FFD discussions listed on that same day as this one, and two of them were closed the same way as this one was closed; moreover, they were closed two days prior to this one being closed. Do you think those two closes should also be reviewed? If not, why? In those two discussions you !voted "delete" and the closes reflected your !votes, whereas in this one you !voted "keep" and the close didn't reflect your !vote. Could that possibly why you felt this close needed to be reviewed? In one of those two discussions your "delete" !vote was
- I argued the close was improper (the second paragraph above starting from "I think the close lacked a rationale") but I doubt there are any court cases relating to birds. Guess I'll just let it go looking at the !votes below. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
- My
- None of what you posted above was posted in the FFD; so, I don't think you can really claim the deleting administrator didn't consider any of that; therefore, I also don't think you can claim the close was improper based on the comments that were posted or based on what you've posted above. In addition, I don't think you can really compare the complexity of the two birds shown in the file linked to below by Extraordinary Writ to the Chinese characters used in the Jeet Kune Do file; letters (even some basic kanji scripts/fonts), in general, are typically considered ineligible for copyright protection and the birds are not letters per se even minus the shading. So, once again, I personally don't think they're clearly too simple and therefore PD elements, absent a specific court case stating as much. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:59, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Marchjuly: This probably isn't below Seychelles TOO since Seychelles was a British colony, so their copyright law is probably modeled under c:COM:TOO UK, which is low. I'm proposing a {{PD-ineligible-USOnly}} relicense if it's not clear. If you want to see the logo to assess yourself, it's similar to this. I think that this design is similar in creativity to File:JeetKuneDo.svg, which was declared by the US copyright office to be below TOO. The birds don't seem to be that creative of a design, and addition of mere shading does not constitute copyright protection. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
- Weak Endorse based on my not being familiar with the details of non-free copy rules, but knowing that Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, so any deletion is probably at least a valid exercise of closer discretion. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:16, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- For the benefit of non-admins, the deleted image is the same as this one. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Weak relist. I don't think the flags/birds/planes/Supermans/whatevers on each side are simple, but I don't see a consensus to delete here and it should be relisted for more opinions. Queen of ♡ | Speak 04:15, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- User:Queen of Hearts, your signature has inadequate contrast. See WP:SIGAPP. SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:50, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment from closer - FFDs involving the licensing status of an image is a little different from other types of deletion discussions. Instead of the application of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, it is the application of copyright rules to the image that determine the outcome. The claim that this image falls below the threshold of originality is based on all elements being too simple for copyright including " the flags on either side of the Seychelles flag" which was rebutted with "the birds in the logo are sufficiently complex to warrant the creation of copyright". The drawing of birds is not a simple shape so the rebuttal is in line with the guidance of what constitutes threshold of originality for the US. As such, the argument that this is copyrightable was stronger, and with no agument that there was a valid non-free usage, I closed accordingly. -- Whpq (talk) 14:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think this was a particularly good close. First of all, TOO is extremely subjective if you don't link to any case studies/other images, so saying "the birds are sufficiently complex to warrant the creation of copyright" is more or less meaningless. As stated above, as the deleting admin I think you should have considered both arguments and provided a justified rationale, or even better relist and see what other editors think, rather than just a boilerplate "The result of this discussion was: delete". —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
uselesscontributions} 15:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)- Since you're a Commons administrator, you're obviously experienced in file licensing related stuff and other administrator stuff. Did you try to informally discuss your concerns with the closing admin prior to starting a deletion review? You're not required to do per se, but it's generally considered courteous and sometimes can save time/effort as explained in WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. Wikipedia administrators can change the wording of their closes or even "revert" their closes if they deem it necessary to do so after the fact without requiring a DR. Perhaps it's a moot point now, but perhaps doing so might've ended up resolving things without needing to come here. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- My bad; I didn't know you're supposed to discuss concerns with the closing admin - I'll do so next time. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
uselesscontributions} 16:05, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- My bad; I didn't know you're supposed to discuss concerns with the closing admin - I'll do so next time. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
- Since you're a Commons administrator, you're obviously experienced in file licensing related stuff and other administrator stuff. Did you try to informally discuss your concerns with the closing admin prior to starting a deletion review? You're not required to do per se, but it's generally considered courteous and sometimes can save time/effort as explained in WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. Wikipedia administrators can change the wording of their closes or even "revert" their closes if they deem it necessary to do so after the fact without requiring a DR. Perhaps it's a moot point now, but perhaps doing so might've ended up resolving things without needing to come here. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think this was a particularly good close. First of all, TOO is extremely subjective if you don't link to any case studies/other images, so saying "the birds are sufficiently complex to warrant the creation of copyright" is more or less meaningless. As stated above, as the deleting admin I think you should have considered both arguments and provided a justified rationale, or even better relist and see what other editors think, rather than just a boilerplate "The result of this discussion was: delete". —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
- Endorse FFD is one of the areas of Wikipedia where consensus matters the least and factfinding matters the most. I haven't seen it so there's a chance I'm incorrect, but I'm convinced by the argument that it violates NFCC #8, especially given Whpq's analysis above. SportingFlyer T·C 22:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- And given the image was linked above, I absolutely agree with the delete arguments. SportingFlyer T·C 22:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse Surprised to see we're rehashing this FfD. This is a cut-and-dry case of an obvious non-free image being non-free. Also worth noting that isn't the first time I've observed Matrix taking a dangerously lax approach to TOO. -Fastily 00:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. Failed WP:NFCC#8 as a non-free file and was too complex to qualify for {{PD-ineligible}}. ✗plicit 04:39, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't even a close call. The image is possibly above the TOO even without the birds to either side of the Seychelles flag - there's at least three elements of creativity, maybe four, depending on whether the gradient is counted separately from the coloring of the triangles, and that's been ruled enough to be copyrightable in some cases - so we'd still have to treat it conservatively. The argument that this must be PD because the NFL stopped sending baseless cease-and-desists for the use of another symbol of lesser complexity which has been in use for millennia shouldn't need answering. —Cryptic 06:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I can see the direction that this is headed, but for the record I would still like to address the last sentence. I was stating that even though the symbol was used for a long time, a derivative rendition of it could have still theoretically created its own copyright, were it not for TOO. I argued that because of this, the birds/flags (idk which one) were below TOO. Whether all these elements together is above TOO is the dispute in question, but there seems to be consensus that it is (opposed to my view that it's not). —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
uselesscontributions} 16:20, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I can see the direction that this is headed, but for the record I would still like to address the last sentence. I was stating that even though the symbol was used for a long time, a derivative rendition of it could have still theoretically created its own copyright, were it not for TOO. I argued that because of this, the birds/flags (idk which one) were below TOO. Whether all these elements together is above TOO is the dispute in question, but there seems to be consensus that it is (opposed to my view that it's not). —Matrix(!) {user - talk? -
- NFCC failure is very clear – it fails 10c as well as 8, as the rationale was a generic template which is not specific – so the only question the FFD needed to answer was whether TOO was met, and it's pretty clear that it is. Endorse. Stifle (talk) 07:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Joe Dispenza
G4 speedied on 6 January 2020, ten years after the original AfD in 2010. I find it hard to believe that someone would have held onto a substantially identical copy of the page for a decade. No opinion on the merits of the topic or whether other criteria apply. Deleting admin is no longer active. Paul_012 (talk) 08:19, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- The article deleted in 2020 was actually significantly poorer than the one deleted in 2010. The 2020 article had two references (1 2), neither of which were much good, and a link to his Youtube channel. I've temporarily undeleted for review of all, but for me this is endorse deletion as G4 is accurate considering it is actually a reduced version of the 2010 deleted article. Daniel (talk) 09:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse G4 per the McClenon Criterion. You shouldn't be able to evade a G4 by merely removing content from the version deleted at AfD. Of course, any editor is welcome to create a new, properly-sourced article for the subject. Owen× ☎ 11:19, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- "You shouldn't be able to evade a G4 by merely removing content from the version deleted at AfD." Fair enough, but I don't see how that should apply here, to a different stub created by a different person, ten years later. --Paul_012 (talk) 11:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Neither the identity of the author nor the date are relevant here. G4 is about content, and only content. It isn't a sanction against an editor, but enforcement of consensus. If consensus determined that a given subject doesn't meet our notability standards, I don't see how the same subject covered by less content will magically meet those standards, regardless of who penned the new, stripped-down version, or how long they've waited to do so. Owen× ☎ 12:49, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- "You shouldn't be able to evade a G4 by merely removing content from the version deleted at AfD." Fair enough, but I don't see how that should apply here, to a different stub created by a different person, ten years later. --Paul_012 (talk) 11:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse the G4 for either of two reasons. First, I have identical copies of a lot of things that are more than ten years old on my C: drive and my F: drive. That's what they're for. The idea that someone wouldn't have held onto a substantially identical copy is silly. Second, a substantially worse version of a deleted article should be deleted. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:00, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- The first point is irrelevant, as it's a totally different person creating a totally unrelated version; I should have phrased it differently. And while I see where you're coming from, I still do not believe it to be within the spirit of G4 to overextend the criterion to newly created, entirely different stubs. Identifying such version as "substantially worse" will always be a judgment call, and CSD is for undisputable cases. And G4 should hardly remain appropriate after ten years, as it's most likely that
the reason for the deletion no longer applies
, which in this case, is the lack of third-party coverage, which now WP:NEXIST.[1][2][3] --Paul_012 (talk) 11:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- The first point is irrelevant, as it's a totally different person creating a totally unrelated version; I should have phrased it differently. And while I see where you're coming from, I still do not believe it to be within the spirit of G4 to overextend the criterion to newly created, entirely different stubs. Identifying such version as "substantially worse" will always be a judgment call, and CSD is for undisputable cases. And G4 should hardly remain appropriate after ten years, as it's most likely that
- Overturn G4 as the re-created version is not
sufficiently identical
to the deleted version. There is at least one reference in the 2020 version that was not present in the 2010 version. That said, the version that was G4ed would stand zero chance at an AFD and I would strongly recommend a move to draft space if Paul_012 or another user has a genuine interest in developing an article. Frank Anchor 13:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC) - Overturn, per Frank, and simply because there ought to be a statue of limitations on G4. I am not defending the content of the page in any way. Mach61 13:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep deleted It depends on how you view "sufficiently identical." I'm not sure this was a copy and paste and significant removal of the old article, and it depends on how strict you want to be in that regard, but it's definitely not ready for mainspace and could easily have been PRODded or maybe even loosely A7'd. SportingFlyer T·C 22:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm curious why you'd think an A7 would be loose - A7 was my immediate reaction on seeing this mentioned on the help desk and looking at the version WilyD deleted. What's the claim of significance here? Appearing in a movie? Heck, I've done that. —Cryptic 06:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see how A7 would apply, as it
does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source or does not qualify on Wikipedia's notability guidelines
(emphasis copied from policy). A person's appearance in a movie and subsequent gain in publicity is a claim to significance (albeit a weak one). Frank Anchor 12:05, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse - substantially the same, only worse. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse - Essentially same content, minus some content which still was present in the 2010 article. Discussions about limitations of G4 should be held on the appropriate page. Lectonar (talk) 14:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse I'm very conservative on speedy deletions. I'd prefer an AfD here to a G4 given how long ago the AfD was and degree of similarity (or lack thereof). But yeah, no additional sources or information, just fewer words. Not an ideal G4, but close enough. Hobit (talk) 12:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Sri Yala Batik (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Early in the discussion, four potential sources were identified (by me). Apart from the nominator, neither of the folowing two delete !votes made any comment on these sources' suitability or lack thereof. As such, I don't think it was accurate to conclude that "Consensus is sourcing is of insufficient depth." I understand that !votes by IP editors may be given less weight or none at all, and had the delete !voters addressed the potential sources directly, I would agree with the close. But as things stood after three relists I don't believe there was consensus on how to interpret the source coverage. Paul_012 (talk) 07:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
Max Rowley
The subject was a well known Australian theatre, radio and television announcer, broadcaster and voiceover man.
I have found the following references showing WP:GNG:
- "Events". The Age. Melbourne: John Fairfax Holdings. 20 April 2001. p. 2. ProQuest 363467038. (confirming his birthday)
- Cockington, James (8 August 1994). "Mad on Max". The Guide. The Sydney Morning Herald. Sydney: John Fairfax Holdings. p. 53. Retrieved 5 May 2024 – via Newspapers.com.
- Cockington, James (18 August 1994). "Max, Mulray's man with the milk-chocolate voice". Green Guide. The Age. Melbourne: John Fairfax Holdings. p. 64. Retrieved 5 May 2024 – via Newspapers.com.
- Marshall, Valda (9 December 1973). "Tony casts a line and catches Max". The Sun-Herald. Sydney: John Fairfax and Sons. p. 110. Retrieved 5 May 2024 – via Newspapers.com.
- "Australia's most loved game shows EVER!". Woman's Day. Are Media. 26 September 2022. pp. 50–53. EBSCOhost 159124968.
- Syderhelm, Jen (4 May 2024). "Vale Max Rowley". RadioInfo Australia. Retrieved 5 May 2024. (about his death)
References about his academy:
- "Big year for Max Rowley Academy graduates". RadioInfo Australia. 27 December 2006. Retrieved 5 May 2024.
- "Acting - Announcing". The Sydney Morning Herald. Sydney: John Fairfax and Sons. 12 June 1965. p. 27. Retrieved 5 May 2024 – via Newspapers.com.
- Ackland, Richard (4 October 1993). "Witching hour weirdies". The Guide. The Sydney Morning Herald. Sydney: John Fairfax Holdings. p. 43. Retrieved 5 May 2024 – via Newspapers.com.
- Levinson, Arlene (25 April 1985). "Focus is on looking good - at $60 an hour". The Sydney Morning Herald. Sydney: John Fairfax and Sons. p. 3. Retrieved 5 May 2024 – via Newspapers.com.
- Jahshan, Elias (20 July 2008). "You have to start early to be on top". The Sunday Telegraph. Sydney: News Limited. p. 7. EBSCOhost 20080720O007506410.
Yours sincerely, Bas (or TechGeek105) (talk to me) 04:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC) (edited 05:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC))
- You don't need DRV's permission to recreate a page in such a way that it decisively beats the reasons given for deletion in its afd. In this case, it was for being entirely unreferenced, and that appears accurate - the latest deleted revision, and spot checks of previous versions every couple years back to its creation in 2004, showed zero explicit citations and not even any external links except for https://www.maxrowley.com/.If you really, really want to write a new article backwards from the old version, I suppose we could userfy it for you. The usual advice is to do without. —Cryptic 06:22, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Start a draft using AfC. Provide the references from the deleted article. It could be recreated directly in mainspace, but only by someone who is confident. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:45, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- @SmokeyJoe, I agree with you, but the draft could be created by me. Can you please provide me with the source from the last revision before it was deleted, so I and other users can hopefully improve it? Yours sincerely, Bas (or TechGeek105) (talk to me) 08:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- I already gave the only source it ever had above. —Cryptic 06:27, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Cryptic: I meant the source code from the last revision before the article was deleted. Yours sincerely, Bas (or TechGeek105) (talk to me) 10:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- I already gave the only source it ever had above. —Cryptic 06:27, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- @SmokeyJoe, I agree with you, but the draft could be created by me. Can you please provide me with the source from the last revision before it was deleted, so I and other users can hopefully improve it? Yours sincerely, Bas (or TechGeek105) (talk to me) 08:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. The original close was unanimous, but no reason to prohibit recreation. I don't support userfication. Draftspace is a better venue for structured collaborative work, with better visibility to other editors, and a definite timeline and mainspacing process. Owen× ☎ 12:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse if the appellant is requesting that the original close be overturned. As is often the case, it isn't clear whether the appellant is asking to overturn the close, or is only asking for permission to create a new draft or new article, but permission isn't needed to create a new draft or new article. It also isn't clear why appellants want a deleted article restored if they have new sources. If they don't want to write a new draft or article from scratch, they can use the wizard. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Allow Recreation because permission isn't required for that. A new article is subject to AFD, and a new draft will be reviewed. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
4 May 2024
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Contested at Template_talk:AfC_submission/rejected#Template-protected_edit_request_on_3_May_2024 due to allegedly insufficient participation and failure to notify WP:AFC. Closure result was never carried out. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:52, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
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3 May 2024
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
This show has the potential to be notable. 173.162.55.134 (talk) 19:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
2 May 2024
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
I would like to request a Deletion Review for the subject. It was moved to the Draftspace with the reason stating that It was not ready for the mainspace, and then it was deleted by another user. I contacted the concerned editor, however they have not responded yet. It is a notable subject and sources can be accessed at its draft. I appreciate everyone's time in this matter. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dosedsneer (talk • contribs)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
1 May 2024
Chloe Lewis (figure skater)
I think this is the right avenue for this. I saw this but never voted in it, I think it should be kept and I later noticed @Hameltion: bring this up somewhere. There's actually good sourcing from the Oregonian and also Colorado Gazeette. She is also a Youth Olympic silver medalist. So I think it should kept instead. Coop (talk) 09:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC) Blocked sock. Frank Anchor 12:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. Both sources are already included in the current draft being worked on. Nothing more to be done here; suggest a withdrawal and speedy close. Owen× ☎ 11:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse' - What OwenX said. -- Whpq (talk) 11:28, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Endorseper OwenX. I have no objection to the draft being spun out to an article in its current state, but that is not in the scope of the DRV discussion. Frank Anchor 14:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Changed to relist. It has come to my attention that delete voter Big Money Threepwood was indef blocked. Striking that vote, there is not a WP:QUORUM, meaning it must be relisted or closed as no consensus (with no prejudice against immediate renomination) or soft delete (subject to immediate restoration upon any good faith request such as this DRV). Relisting is probably the best option here, citing added visibility from this DRV. I will add that the Sandstein closed the AFD correctly based on information known at the time. Frank Anchor 19:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Endorse as a valid close, but this isn't the right avenue.Some editors, including the current appellant, reasonably think that DRV is the right avenue to consider a new draft when an article was deleted, but DRV is not necessary in such cases. The article was deleted but not salted, and the draft will be reviewed. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:34, 1 May 2024 (UTC)- I'll just note for posterity how unsatisfying the AfD was: these adequate sources were already in the article, but none of the delete !voters addressed why they felt they were insufficient, and the nominator didn't understand the subordinate role of an SNG vs GNG. But no one was making those points at the time, so the closer went along with unsubstantiated claims of sourcing problems. The draft should just be moved back into mainspace at this point. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 16:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I share your frustrations, but as an admin, I can tell you that it's damned if you do, and damned if you don't. If you discard perfunctory !votes that constitute a numerical majority and close based on guidelines, you're accused of supervoting. And if you don't discard perfunctory !votes, you're accused of counting noses and ignoring guidelines. We love quoting WP:NOTAVOTE, but in practice, things aren't as simple. Owen× ☎ 17:27, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I understand, hard to close a discussion when there are no good policy-backed !votes. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 17:43, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- The right thing to do if you're looking at closing a discussion where you disagree with the participants' interpretation of guidelines is to comment instead of closing. —Cryptic 19:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I understand, hard to close a discussion when there are no good policy-backed !votes. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 17:43, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I share your frustrations, but as an admin, I can tell you that it's damned if you do, and damned if you don't. If you discard perfunctory !votes that constitute a numerical majority and close based on guidelines, you're accused of supervoting. And if you don't discard perfunctory !votes, you're accused of counting noses and ignoring guidelines. We love quoting WP:NOTAVOTE, but in practice, things aren't as simple. Owen× ☎ 17:27, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- "Endorse" and "the draft can be turned into an article right now as it is" aren't compatible; the changes from the version deleted at AFD and now are almost entirely cosmetic. —Cryptic 17:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Substantialcontent was added to the draft on 20 April. However, even if that was not the case, my opinion is akin to “I would have voted keep, but consensus disagreed with me, so I endorse the result.” DRV is not AFD part 2, but I’m sure you already know that. Frank Anchor 17:47, 1 May 2024 (UTC)- Would this "substantial content" be the changes to the infobox, the removal of the statement that she's a freshman in college, or the six new tables that give unreferenced statistics of the exact same competitions as the table that was already there? AFC isn't AFD part 2 either; if this is moved into mainspace I'll speedy it. —Cryptic 18:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- I retract the "substantial" part, as I looked more at the quantity of the content than the quality. Thanks for finding my error. Frank Anchor 19:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
I just noticed one of the delete voters are banned does their vote still count? Coop (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)Blocked sock. Frank Anchor 12:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)In addition, the nominator even said she never should have been nominated for deletion.Can we just move this from draft now? Coop (talk) 18:03, 1 May 2024 (UTC)Blocked sock. Frank Anchor 12:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
Oh okay, I didn't know there was already another draft in progress. I'm fine with closing and withdrawing if someone knows how to do that. Coop (talk) 17:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)Blocked sock. Frank Anchor 12:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - Deletion Review is not AFC, and does not move a draft into mainspace. But ...
- Relist after discounting the sockpuppet !vote. The appellant is advised to improve the article while the deletion discussion is resuming, to try to get a Heymann result. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:37, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Relist per everyone above. The delete closure was fine at the time it was made, but now that it's been reasonably challenged and one of the deleters was a sock a relist is reasonable. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:29, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think we needed a participant to later be blocked for socking to have overturned this - a deletion discussion that waves away those sources with no more than "fails WP:SIGCOV" is defective, not just an outcome being disagreed with. But, as I mentioned above, we do need to overturn it, not just wave it away as "the deletion discussion was correct, but you can go ahead and move some stuff around in the WP:REFUNDed article and just dump it back in mainspace". —Cryptic 03:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse I also wouldn't move the draft into mainspace any time soon, to be honest. The DRV nom has just been blocked, and the two articles we're basing this on fail WP:YOUNGATH (one is from her home metro area and the other is from her dance partner's metro area), and there's no other clear sourcing available yet. SportingFlyer T·C 06:25, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment The "keep" !vote makes a policy-based argument for Redirect without deletion of the edit history, which is not refuted in the AfD. 2603:6011:8241:6E00:243F:DBC7:2745:2359 (talk) 09:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Close as moot. Nom is also a sock. The extant draft can go through AfC like any other and if substantially improved, it will not be a G4. Star Mississippi 11:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
Nom is also a sock
does not excuse the fact that the article was later found to be deleted without a quorum. In addition, there are multiple good-faith votes to not endorse the result, so the DRV must run its course. Frank Anchor 12:42, 2 May 2024 (UTC)- Absolutely correct. However five more days here to kick it back to AfD for ~ 7 or more seems silly when there's a path to mainspace in less time and there's no guarantee a relist will result in retention. To be clear though, my opinion not policy. Star Mississippi 01:24, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- User:Star Mississippi writes:
there's a path to mainspace in less time and there's no guarantee a relist will result in retention.
Yes, but there's no guarantee that AFC will result in promotion back to mainspace either. I would decline the current draft because it does not speak for itself and does not describe significant coverage by reliable sources. The idea of moving the draft into article space in its current state is well-meaning but silly. So I also think that a relist will very likely repeat the deletion. There is no quick path to resolve this. The article isn't ready for mainspace; the draft isn't ready for mainspace. The proponents of an article need to work on the draft. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:00, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- User:Star Mississippi writes:
- Absolutely correct. However five more days here to kick it back to AfD for ~ 7 or more seems silly when there's a path to mainspace in less time and there's no guarantee a relist will result in retention. To be clear though, my opinion not policy. Star Mississippi 01:24, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Relist due to socking issues. Stifle (talk) 08:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Relist; no fault, but tainted by socking. Queen of Hearts (talk) 05:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
30 April 2024
Fathima Thahiliya (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Who previously created this page and other editors who shared it in the deletion discussion did not have the quality pass to retain it, so this page has been removed, and as of today, this page is eligible for a new political position WP:NPOL or (officeholder), WP:GNG. category, which should be moved to draft to be edited and moved to the main page ~~ Spworld2 talk 01:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
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Template:Historical American Documents (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Consensus for splitting was clear and was initially given by closing editor here and in previous discussion Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 March 12#Template:Signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, yet refusal to accept this consensus and consistent WP:BLUDGEONING by a certain editor at Template talk:Historical American Documents seems to have overturned and derailed the correct outcome --woodensuperman 06:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
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Saira Shah Halim (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The deletion discussion was taken without any proper discussion based on policy happening. The article had enough reliable sources with significant coverage over a wide period of time. I provided a wide list of sources. Two participants simply did not see anything and made vague comments, one of them was a brand new account and the other's only objection was that it was edited by sockpuppet. One more participant later came and after some discussion he accepted that the coverage was fine but he did not consider the topic notable because the topic didn't meet WP:NPOL ignoring WP:BASIC and also WP:GNG itself which the coverage meets. There was no other participation. Therefore it must have been no consensus or keep, not delete. P.S, there was one more participant who concurred but didn't give a (vote) and wanted to see some more sources over a wider period of time which I showed but she didn't come back to it. It should be counted too. MrMkG (talk) 01:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |