Talk:Myanmar civil war (2021–present)

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Helpful source for locations of several Shan groups[edit]

https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/why-are-ppst-members-fighting-each-other-interview

Pa-O National Liberation Army, Pa-O National Army, and Shan State Army (RCSS).

  • It mentions the PNA in "Honar Township" "north of Ka Du Gyi" (Which I can't find the location of)
  • Confirms the PLNA presence in Ka Du Gyi
  • States that the RCSS/SSA controls "Mong Tok, Mong Htar Region, Mong Pan West Region, and Homein Sub-Township" (I found this article backing it up https://asiafoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Ethnic-Armed-Actors-and-Justice-Provision-in-Myanmar_EN.pdf, which is an interesting source just by itself: "In January 2012, an agreement between the RCSS and the government established Ho Mong (Homein) “sub-township” of Langkho township and Mong Htar (Hmone Hta) “sub-township” of Mong Tang township as recognized “RCSS headquarters administrative and development areas.” The RCSS was given the power to govern civilians in these areas.")

IdioticAnarchist (talk) 17:46, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are some great sources- I think when May drops, I'll apply these to the map. been feeling like KNA really needs to be separate but want to see how that goes.
Anyways, Honar Township is probably a mistranscription- it sounds to me a lot like "ဟိုနား" which literally means "that one" like "that township over there". There is no central-government recognized place called Kadugyi (big Kaud), but Kadulay (small Kadu) in makwmai township and Kandu is in Pekon township - both close to Hopong Township. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 19:54, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ka Du Gyi is on Google maps though? Is it like more of a de facto region than a de jure recognised region? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ka+Du+Gyi,+Myanmar+(Burma)
The area I was having more issues finding is the "Mong Tok and Mong Htar" Regions. West Mong Pan Township is pretty obvious, and Homein subtownship I found through this (quite good) Shan Township map https://themimu.info/sites/themimu.info/files/documents/Report_Shan_State_Census_Report_MOIP_May2015.pdf
EDIT: I found the location of "Mong Htar" subtownship through the Asia foundation source I linked. "Mong Htar" is shown as "Monehta" Subtownship on the population report map. Turns out the RCSS/SSA controls more southernly territories than shown on the map. All I need help with finding is "Mong Tok".
Also, Loi Tai Leng, the headquarters of the RCSS, is shown in red on the map for some reason.
Alongside that, found several sources showing the Wa State southern area as far smaller than what is shown on the map, including the same source used by you to originally add it to the map. https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2019-07/pw_147-the_united_wa_state_army_and_burmas_peace_process.pdf https://www.crisisgroup.org/asia/south-east-asia/myanmar/299-fire-and-ice-conflict-and-drugs-myanmars-shan-state
The article for the RCSS/SSA (alongside several sources) states that the RCSS/SSA has 4 bases along the Thai-Myanmar border (excluding Loi Tai Leng). Loi Moong Merng, Loi Hsarm Hsip, Loi Gawwan, and Loi Lam. The only map I could find is this one https://www.bnionline.net/en/shan-herald-agency-for-news/item/11963-burma-army-fomenting-another-war-between-wa-shans.html. Strangly, most of these are shown in Wa State southern area. I believe that Wa State controls less than what's shown on the war map, but I agree that they surely control several of these areas. Perhaps the bases are exclaves surrounded by the Wa?
Loi Tai Leng and Loi Moong Merng are surely controlled by the RCSS. Loi Lam might be? Loi Hsarm Hsip and Loi Gawwan are surely in Wa controlled areas.
Lastly, could someone perhaps help translate this source and/or find the location this map shows? https://mmpeacemonitor.org/311228/rcss-prepares-for-offensive-against-sspp-after-talks-with-the-military/
Two sources confirming RCSS/SSA activity in Mongton's Hmone Htar https://reliefweb.int/report/myanmar/shan-rebels-fight-govt-despite-peace-deal https://english.shannews.org/archives/24837
(Sorry that this is just a big bunch of diconnected ramblings) IdioticAnarchist (talk) 04:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I have found the official points of the RCSS/SSA ceasefire agreement (albeit "unofficially" translated via SHAN) https://mmpeacemonitor.org/images/pdf/SSA-S-Government-UNOFC.pdf https://mmpeacemonitor.org/images/pdf/SSA-S-Government-19may2012.pdf https://mmpeacemonitor.org/images/pdf/SSA-S-Government-16jan2012.pdf IdioticAnarchist (talk) 02:46, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Finally found an actual location which India-based insurgents control[edit]

After much research, I have finally found a location which India-based insurgents, specifically the National Socialist Council of Nagaland, have bases in and control. The Somra Tracts, in Layshi Township, Naga Self-Administered Zone, Sagaing Region. I don't mean to be annoying by asking to add another colour to the map (considering we already have so many) but yeah I am asking for this to be added to the map if possible. https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/why-civil-over-in-myanmar-may-see-spillover-insurgency-in-indias-north-east-13571442.html https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/indias-security-and-the-fencing-of-the-myanmar-border-13740601.html https://www.news18.com/opinion/opinion-somra-maoism-and-naga-peace-process-7600819.html

The News 18 article also states that "Yowpi" is another base for the NSCN. I can't find an exact location for it, but its either north or south of Somra. North, this page (https://www.mindat.org/feature-1284683.html) states the coordinates of Yowpi. When putting those coordinates into Google maps its a few dozen miles south of Somra. But when searching "Yowpi" in Google maps it autocorrects to Yawpami, also a few dozen miles north of Somra.

Other places I can find are Taga and Hoyat villages. Hoyat (https://thediplomat.com/2022/01/indian-rebel-outfits-regrouping-in-myanmar-again/ https://nagalandpage.com/nscn-im-c-in-cs-loyalists-request-for-disciplinary-action-against-deputy-c-in-c/) I cannot find the location of. Taga I've found some conflicting accounts. The firstpost article says, its West of the Chindwin River, but the diplomat article says it's in the Hukwang Valley (which, from I can tell, is east of the Chindwin). Then this News 18 article (https://www.news18.com/news/india/myanmar-army-abandons-taga-headquarters-of-northeast-insurgent-groups-after-three-years-5450287.html) implies that its in Hkamti Township, considering "one company of 252 battalion of Hkamti Brigade" was stationed at Taga until June 2022.

(Also several sources state that insurgent bases tend to be around 10 miles~ from the border, as to not be attacked by India. Don't know if that's notable, its just something I've seen.) IdioticAnarchist (talk) 22:09, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update on Hoyat: I've found an approximate location for "Chen Hoyat", which I suspect is the same thing. https://www.etvbharat.com/english/bharat/ne-insurgents-in-recoup-bid-under-china-myanmars-benign-gaze/na20220106200229525
Hoyat is in:
  • Konyak Naga-dominated land
  • forested areas
  • Chen Hoyat area and its nearby localities located in Myanmar across India’s Nagaland state
IdioticAnarchist (talk) 13:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great working compiling all this research! Hopefully someone will be able to implement it. NewishIdeas (talk) 23:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I've done, what I would consider, a lot of research on the topic of India-based insurgent groups (which you can find in the archives of this page, also added India-based groups to list of ethnic armed organisations in Myanmar, and added much of the stuff relating to the Zomi Revolutionary Army on this article), and finally it seems like I've actually made a breakthrough/it finally paid off! I'll continue researching to try to get a better picture on the situation, considering it's not at all well-documented, and sources are usually very vague or confusing. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 00:25, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This map appears to show Taga on the border between Hkamti and Tanai Township's in Sagaing Region and Kachin State, respectively. This is the highest quality map I can find. Finally, I've found Taga (hopefully)! https://www.firstpost.com/india/ulfa-in-disarray-after-myanmar-armys-crackdown-has-endgame-begun-for-the-separatist-outfit-6355401.html also, the map shows a settlement called "Haukyat" which is mighty close to "Hoyat" but I'm probably wrong.
When looking up "Map of Taga in Myanmar" (the file name of the map included in the Firstpost article) several villages come up by the name of "Taga Hka" in the approximate location https://geographic.org/geographic_names/name.php?uni=-643179&fid=698&c=burma https://www.mindat.org/feature-1295252.html could these be the same settlement? I'm unsure if UNLFWSEA activity near Taga can be shown, considering their bases in Taga were dismantled in 2019; but in 2022 Burmese forces retreated from Taga and NSCN forces possibly began reconstructing bases in the area https://www.news18.com/news/india/myanmar-army-abandons-taga-headquarters-of-northeast-insurgent-groups-after-three-years-5450287.html IdioticAnarchist (talk) 18:09, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A source stating that the military gave Taga back to rebels in return for them attacking PDF's (although this source is admittedly likely bias) https://nagalandpost.com/index.php/2022/06/28/myanmar-army-abandons-taga-hqs-of-ne-rebel-groups/ IdioticAnarchist (talk) 13:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Three Pagoads and Good Karen map[edit]

The KNU de facto captured and de facto has control over the Three Pagodas Pass and the town of Payathonzu https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/knu-consolidates-full-control-over-three-pagodas-pass-payathonzu-area-administration-spite

Also, don't know if it's too useful, but this map of bases captured in Karen State could be used to specify certain areas of the Karen front https://myanmar-now.org/en/news/new-report-shows-junta-is-losing-its-hold-over-southeastern-myanmar/ IdioticAnarchist (talk) 16:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Very helpful map[edit]

I found this very useful map showing positions captured by rebels, government outposts and rebel bases. It is produced by Nathan Ruser, analytyst at Australian Strategic Policy Institute, so it can be considered reliable source. Borysk5 (talk) 16:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of map edits[edit]

In anticipation for May, and Thomas Van Linge (hopefully) posting an updated Myanmar map (One of the main sources for the map on this article), I've made a list of additions and changes for the map organised by importance! (added strikethroughs on edits added to map)

Indisputable edits:

Disputable edits: (Sources may have mistakes or additions unnotable/small in scope (labeled as sis))

Very Disputable Edits: (needs more research or has articles disputing it, but good to note)

IdioticAnarchist (talk) 04:51, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great list. Added some stuff to the map from the Indisputable points. The other stuff is mostly pretty old and needs some deeper diving and/or fresh sources to clarify or confirm. Good job once again! MrBLOCKiron (talk) 16:56, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! And thanks for the edits! If you tell me which ones need better/newer sources I can look for them. I tried to organise them by how good their sources were. Also, not to nitpick, but why was RCSS/SSA control over Mong Htar/Loi Lam included while Homein/Loi Moong Merng not? IdioticAnarchist (talk) 18:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added all the Indisputable and some other points.
Some of the other points i cant confirm however, here's the points & reasons: (feel free to object)
  • The Borysk5 found map is great for finding bases and such, however they cant be confirmed as the source is not really reliable. A lot of points are also just named Point number and i don't know what to do with that info.
  • For the Three Pagodas Pass, a recent article indicates that people draft dodging are being arrested there, presumably by junta forces. So if you can find something more recent to counter that would be appreciated. Here's the recent article.
  • About Homein, the sources are very old and i would take the safest bet here hand leave it unchanged. The Borysk5 map also still reports it as under Tatmadaw control.
  • uh the source for Loi Moong Merng is over 12 years old, i dont think its still accurate.
  • For the UNLFWSEA, i cant really add another side, i dont have the experince
The Very Disputable Edits, indeed does need some more research first. Keep up the great work! MrBLOCKiron (talk) 10:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some very fair points. Thank you! Good map edits. I'll try to look through the other edits for some newer sources.
Addition: Specifically with the Three Pogodas Pass, I think the source you were meaning to link was this, considering it talks about draft-dodging and its recent. From my reading of the article, it seems as though draft-dodgers were arresting by Thai authorities, not Burmese. I could be wrong though. Also, other users editing the map have stated that the map more shows the "de facto" situation on ground. A good example was the Asian Highway 1 before Operation Aung Zeya. Junta forces did have troops stationed along the highway, but goods going through the highway had to pay the KNLA to pass, and the KNLA had fire control over basically the entire highway, so it was shown as KNLA control on the map. If that makes sense. The KNLA in practice control Payathonzu, despite junta soldiers still being stationed there. Of course, I could be wrong and the source I'm using is admittedly over half a year old, and situations in Myanmar can change rather quickly. One last thing, again, not to nitpick -beggars can't be choosers as they say- but the KNLA still controls most of the Dawna Hills. Operation Aung Zeya has only made it to the Taw Naw waterfall, around 1/3rd the way to Myawaddy. Another User, @EmeraldRange suggested that the Karen National Army (Karen Border Guard Force) be shown as a different colour, considering they are a separate entity from both the KNLA and the Tatmadaw and they are notable enough (to me at least) to be their own thing on the map. Of course, beggars can't be choosers and I don't know if you can add a new colour to the map, but it's a suggestion that I feel is notable enough to take into account. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 12:32, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After finding a somewhat (2022) recent article, I concede on my research on both Homein and Monghta sub-townships. https://mizzima.com/article/shadows-shan-refugees-thailand
"It thus appeared to be a significant concession from the Burmese government in the RCSS/SSA’s Union-level ceasefire agreement in January 2012: “To allow RCSS/SSA headquarters in Homein sub-township and Mong Hta sub-township.” (Ho Mein/Mong was the former MTA HQ area, about 60 kilometres west of Mong Hta). However, this agreement was never honoured. The Burma Army never retreated from Mong Hta or Ho Mong, and RCSS/SSA was only allowed a small liaison office in Mong Hta."
I do believe, however, that the RCSS/SSA still control the rest of both townships. I don't have much evidence backing this up other than the ceasefire agreement that the Tatmadaw broke. I believe that the RCSS/SSA still control the their bases along the Thai border and the rest of Homein/Monghta sub-townships. Also, this is the only article I can find saying this, so this article may be wrong. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 18:27, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you and @IdioticAnarchist for your work on this! It's great to see. I'm personally swamped IRL with work and it's great to see other editors take over the file too. If you aren't sure how to add a new colour, I can do the KNA addition later this weekend! EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I'm not MrBLOCKiron, and I don't know whether they know how to add a new colour, I'm gonna suppose not. It would be greatly appreciated if you could add the KNA control over Myawaddy and Shwe Kokko when you can (also a few more map updates if you can, like Bhamo being cut off from Myitkyina by KIA, Karen control over the Dawna Range, lack of SSPP/SSA control over Mong Pan or Mong Pawn, and possibly the UNLFW presence in Somra (I kinda wanna see how my research holds up)). Of course, don't feel rushed to do it considering work is more important than editing a Wikipedia map. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 19:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I'm trying to get a handle on the KNA situation myself. There seems to be new things happening and frankly stepping away from following the news for a week makes the whole Myawaddy situation confusing to wrap my head around.
One question for you as someone who dug into it much more is what to label the Indian rebel groups as "Indian rebel groups" seem a unhelpful and WP:POV especially since many are separatists. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 14:59, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose you can just state that the groups are Valley-based insurgent groups (VBIGs), as I've seen them labeled in several articles (considering most Meitei-majority groups are active in the Imphal Valley). Or Indian Ethnic Armed Organisations (IEAOs). Or just as the United National Liberation Front of Western South East Asia (UNLFW) and allies, and do the footnote solution of including the list of allies in the footnote (considering CorCom and UNLFW tend to occupy the same bases).
On the KNA situation, from what I understand, the Tatmadaw occupy the 275 LIB base west of the city and jointly occupy the city with KNA, while the KNA control Shwe Kokko and jointly occupy Myawaddy with the Tatmadaw. I forget the source, so don't quote me on it, but only around 150 Tatmadaw soldiers are in the city and LIB base, while upwards of 7,000 KNA soldiers occupy Myawaddy and Shwe Kokko. Considering the size difference, I think Myawaddy could be shown as just KNA control, considering the KNA are definitely the main force in the city. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 15:09, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'm leaning towards showing Myawaddy as joint Tat-KNA control just because they the KNA is allegedly/presumably giving junta access? But Shwekoko seems more properly KNA control. Althought I guess you can also show it as KNA being junta-alligned (for now)? EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 16:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also KK Park is under control of KNA, south of Myawaddy. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 13:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, small but important thing brought up by @Hjks7121, Hakha and Falam are switched up on the map. Hakha is east of Thantlang, not Falam. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 04:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's now fixed on the interactive map, but Hakha is still switched with Falam on the main map at the top of the page. Hjks7121 (talk) 19:45, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Old, but interesting map[edit]

https://www2.irrawaddy.com/article.php?art_id=21447

(Everything else is kind of useless and definitely overexaggerated) IdioticAnarchist (talk) 05:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amazing, relatively up-to-date source about the situation in Southern Shan State[edit]

https://www.burmalibrary.org/sites/burmalibrary.org/files/obl/5-23-2019-SSRC-SHRF-Press-release-Eng-report.pdf

Map includes

  • Southern Wa State bases
  • Southern Wa State "expansion"/borders
  • Burmese military bases around southern Wa State
  • Shan State internally-displaced-peoples camps (source states that these IDP camps also act as RCSS/SSA bases: "...on RCSS/SSA territories where the IDPs are sheltering...When the RCSS/SSA then set up camps along the adjacent border..."')

Overall, just an amazing source (it even criticises other maps for overexaggerating territorial control!) and is pretty up-to-date (2019)

@MrBLOCKiron and @EmeraldRange (@ing you amazing folks because you folks have helped edit the map in the past), when/if you can read it, I think this is a good source for the situation down in Southern Shan State, which has been pretty hard to understand (in my opinion) and sources are often contradictory. Also backs up the claim that the Burmese Army still controls Monghta and Homein towns, which is interesting. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 04:55, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How can I update the map?[edit]

I wish to update the map, in the image and in the other section when updates happen. I know for Example, multiple Chin towns have been captured and the situation is changed. How can I update it? UnJapóLliure (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I ain't too sure on how to update the map, but one of the editors of the map, @EmeraldRange, stated that "The actual editing usually requires using some vector software for this civil war map- I use Inkscape." IdioticAnarchist (talk) 13:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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