Talk:List of F5 and EF5 tornadoes

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Proposal - WP:TNT and restart possible F5/EF5/IF5 tornado list[edit]

I am wanting to formally proposal that we do a WP:TNT on the entire possible F5/EF5/IF5 tornado list. We then hold discussions about setting community-consensus criteria about what to include or exclude from the list, similar to how we set criteria on WP:TornadoCriteria. Then we rebuild the list based on community consensus. That will easily stop debates about what to include or exclude on the list. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 02:52, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No need. This article has already been redone over and over. No need to take drastic measures because other editors disagreed with an addition that was made. United States Man (talk) 02:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seconding what USM says. Honestly there will always be debates on this, regardless of which tornadoes we include or exclude. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you think this has anything to do with editors disagreeing with me? Focusing on me over the content? I proposed setting formal community criteria for the list. Since you say that is "drastic measures", are you saying no community consensus is better than a community consensus for the criteria, which currently does not exist? The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 02:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This was a straight proposal about setting formal criteria. Opposing this means you think there is no need to have criteria on the page. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 02:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was under the impression that we had formal criteria, being a reliable source based on verifiable expertise explicitly stating that a tornado was or may have been F5/EF5. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TornadoLGS: Correct. United States Man (talk) 03:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. Then 2021 Western Kentucky tornado, which was added by community consensus would need to be removed as "EF5" was never stated. Please remove 1957 Dallas, 1973 Union City, 1973 Central Alabama tornado, 1999 Mulhall, 2013 Bennington, 2016 Sulphur, and 2016 Dodge City, as neither of those tornadoes had "F5" or "EF5" quoted, and were all either estimations of 200+ mph intensity or radar measurements over 200+ mph. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 03:06, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No opposition from me if reliable sources don't exist. United States Man (talk) 03:07, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose removal of all *except* 2021 Western Kentucky tornado, as a 2-3 editor discussion here shouldn't override the formal (and uninvolved closed) discussion which added it back in 2022. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 03:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the entries have reliable sources stating they are possible F5/EF5. Many entries here are included based only on mentioned wind speeds that happen to coincide with F5/EF5 speeds without a clear link being established. Those should be removed. United States Man (talk) 03:13, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed I have opposed such inclusions previously. I think entries that don't belong do sneak on here occasionally and it has to be pruned. I did an overhaul of this article back in 2020. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:56, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The Minden/Harlan tornado is included based solely on tweets about radar-estimated instantaneous wind speeds and should also be removed. Penitentes (talk) 13:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wasn't the 2021 Kentucky tornado initially rated a low-end EF5? That should stay, even though it was later downgraded. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 12:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was not ever rated EF5, preliminarily or otherwise. Penitentes (talk) 13:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, that's my bad. I thought the EF5 rating was brought into play. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 13:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was widely speculated, for sure, I can see how the memory worms in! About two-and-a-half years ago now. Penitentes (talk) 13:20, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We've had so many similiar tornadoes in the 3 years since eg. (Rolling Fork, Tri-State, now Greenfield) that it's so hard to keep track of what is preliminarily assigned what. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 14:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May 2024 — Possible F5/EF5/IF5 List Tornado Statuses[edit]

Below is a detailed list of tornadoes which are on the list or have been discussed for the list and what the current consensus (by discussion, silent, or unchallenged BRD) is as of this message on May 23, 2024. This list did involve me going back through the talk page discussion archives.

Tornado Consensus
1666 Lincolnshire Include
1927 Neede Exclude
1931 Lublin Include
1946 Windsor Include
1951 Olney Include
1951 Waupaca Include
1952 Byhalia-Moscow Include
1952 Linwood Include
1953 Worcester Include
1953 Cygnet Include
1954 Crowell Include
1955 Walcott Include
1957 Dallas Include
1957 Fremont Include
1957 Pavia Include
1958 El Dorado Include
1960 Wamego-St. Marys Include
1961 Custer County Include
1963 Patricia Include
1964 Lawrence Include
1965 Dunlap Include
1965 Lebanon-Sheridan Include
1965 Strongsville Include
1965 Wolbach-Primrose Include
1968 Falmouth-Ripley Include
1969 Chuhegang Include
1970 Bulahdelah Exclude
1971 Gosser Ridge Include
1973 Union City Include
1973 Central Alabama Include
1979 Cheyenne Exclude
1974 Franklin County Include
1983 Belle Pointe Exclude
1984 Ivanovo Include
1984 Kostroma Include
1985 Parker Dam State Park Include
1987 Edmonton Include
1989 Allendale Include
1990 Stratton Exclude
1991 Red Rock Include
1991 Arkansas City Include
1992 Bucca Include
1995 Pampa Include
1995 Hoover Exclude
1995 McLean Include
1995 Allison Include
1998 Spencer Include
1998 Wayne County Include
1999 Mulhall Include
1999 Loyal Valley Include
2002 La Plata Include
2003 Franklin Exclude
2004 Harper Include
2004 Marion Include
2006 Westminster Exclude
2008 Clinton-Mountain View Exclude
2010 Bowdle Exclude
2010 Wilkins County Exclude
2011 New Wren Include
2011 Tuscaloosa Include
2011 Cullman Exclude
2011 Cordova Exclude
2011 Flat Rock-Trenton Exclude
2011 Chickasha Include
2011 Goldsby Include
2012 Henryville Include
2012 Cherokee Exclude
2013 Shawnee Exclude
2013 Bennington Include
2013 El Reno Include
2013 East Peoria–Washington Exclude
2014 Vilonia Include
2014 Pilger Exclude
2015 Rochelle Exclude
2015 Ashland Exclude
2016 Sulphur Include
2016 Dodge City Include
2016 Chapman Include
2016 Ensign Exclude
2016 Friend Exclude
2016 Jiangsu Exclude
2017 Maloye Pes'yanovo Include
2018 Alonsa Include
2019 Nepal Include
2019 Greenwood Springs Include
2020 Bassfield Exclude
2020 Sandy Hook-Purvis Exclude
2021 South Moravia Exclude
2021 Western Kentucky Include
2022 Andover Exclude
2023 Rolling Fork Exclude
2024 Harlan Exclude
2024 Hollister Exclude
2024 Greenfield Exclude

The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 16:30, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know where else to add this, but I found this recent email response someone got from NWS Paducah about nearly rating the Perryville, MO tornado (2/28/2017) an EF-5. Don't know if a more reliable source is required, or if this counts, but I'll send it anyways since it may be noteworthy. https://twitter.com/LimWeather/status/1793993961545355550 67.69.165.178 (talk) 14:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should tornadoes with EF5 winds confirmed by DOW or other radars be included in a separate section? Many strong tornadoes have had that without causing much damage, including (I believe) a tornado just yesterday in Midland County, Texas which reached peak intensity just a few miles away from NWS Midland/Odessa's radar but produced little damage.
I'm also unsure as to the relevance of gate-to-gate shear, so I understand not including Hollister etc., but perhaps tornadoes with extreme measured winds should get at least a mention. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 17:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We might include it with the note that the cited sources in the section mention winds in the EF5 range but don't explicitly state the tornado was an EF5. Either that or we might have a separate list for highest measured winds in tornadoes. I wouldn't include gate-to-gate shear. I'd say the tweet doesn't quite meet RS. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, one more consideration: the International Fujita scale which is currently being developed and deployed in Europe has been used to rate a few US tornadoes; note that, unlike the damage-based Enhanced Fujita scale, the IF scale does accept wind speed measurements. 117 m/s or 261 mph for a zero-second measurement and 3 second measurements of 104 m/s or 232 mph is IF5, even if the National Weather Service continues using the Enhanced Fujita scale to officially rate the tornado based on damage. I'm unsure as to the protocol for US tornadoes being rated on a non-US scale, however there is a non-zero chance that, for instance, Greenfield or another similar tornado gets rated IF5 by the ESSL without being rated EF5 by the National Weather Service, and if and when that happens, those should almost certainly be included. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 14:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where have you seen the IF scale applied to U.S. tornadoes? In any case, scale crossovers might get tricky. I think we do have a tornado or two in this list that is officially EF4 but with a comment that it would likely be rated F5 if assessed on the original Fujita scale. TornadoLGS (talk) 17:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a quick note on scale cross-overs, we have two opposing consensuses (so far) on that. 1998 Tennessee tornado was added as NWS rated it F4, but later said it would warrant EF5 in modern day (2013 NWS reassessment). Despite scale-crossovers being allowed per consensus, back in late 2021, there was a discussion about excluding the 2021 Andover tornado, despite ESSL saying (at an AMS conference no less) it would be rated IF5 had it occurred in Europe. Also, 2023 Rolling Fork was said to be equivalent to an F5 tornado, however, that was removed from the list. Also, the ESSL director along with other European meteorologists stated 2024 Greenfield’s DOW measurements would rate it IF5 in Europe. So as janky as it seems, the current consensus (as of this point in time) seems to be:
Include F —> EF
Exclude EF —> F
Exclude EF —> IF
With that said though, I would be in support in including any rating crossovers, given NWS has done it and we included that. Either way, the consensus seems split on that idea as of this time. So we should make a hard decision on “Yes” include rating crossovers (if from RS) or “No” and remove that 1998 NWS crossover inclusion. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 17:29, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I have seen comments that the 2014 Vilonia tornado and the 2011 Tuscaloosa tornado would likely have been rated F5, but we have other sources supporting potential EF5 on those, so scale crossover is not the only thing we have for those. TornadoLGS (talk) 17:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm definitely in favor of including rating crossovers in the Possible F5/EF5 intensity category; again, if a recognized body of meteorology says a tornado would be an IF5 in Europe by the ESSL, that should be mentioned (Take the reverse, where a tornado in Europe rated IF5 by the ESSL gets reviewed by the NWS, who puts it at an EF4 or below; that would obviously be accepted on this list, even though the rating is not universally consistent across the scales.). GeorgeMemulous (talk) 15:50, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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