Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tadeusz Kościuszko

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article promoted. Anotherclown (talk) 02:45, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tadeusz Kościuszko[edit]

Nominator(s): Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here


Probably the most high visibility of my recent milhist projects, I wonder what would it take to get this to A-class. Just please, if you want to comment on prose, please be specific, I am not a native speaker and there are some prose issues I cannot do unless they are clearly explained). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:53, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: I've made a few changes today, please check that you are happy with them. I have a couple of comments below, and will try to take more of a look at the article a bit later:

  • is there a reference for this: "Having all but cut off the last means of escape, Gates accepted General Burgoyne's surrender of his entire force at Saratoga on October 16, 1777."?
  • watch for overlink: I removed some, but there are more examples. I find that this script helps: User:Ucucha/duplinks. The rule of thumb at A- class these days seems to be once in the lead, once in the infobox and once in the body of the article. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • the lead mentions a sum of $20,000 but this doesn't seem to be mentioned in the body;
  • in the Tributes and commemoration section, I suggest combining some of the short/single sentence paragraphs;
  • if possible, can the titles that are not in English be translated, for instance "Костюшко Тадеуш Андрей Бонавентура – 100 ВЕЛИКИХ АРИСТОКРАТОВ – всемирная история" (Reference 16);
  • in Reference 28: "Holger Afflerbach; Hew Strachan (26 July 2012). How Fighting Ends: A History of Surrender. Oxford University Press. pp. 177–179. ISBN 978-0-19-969362-7. Retrieved 18 May 2013." Is this a book, or a website? If a book, then it should probably use the same citation style as the others (e.g. Reference 27);
  • in Reference 37: " Dave R. Palmer" Fortress West Point: 19th Century Concept in an 18th Century War." Military Engineer 68 (1976):171–74". This should probably just be converted to a short citation like the others and the full details added to the Bibliography;
  • in Reference 66: "Tomasz Otrębski (1994). "Kościuszko," 1893–1896. Wydawn. "Partner". p. 39. ISBN 978-83-900984-0-1. Retrieved May 9, 2013." Is this a book, or a website? If a book, then it should probably use the same citation style as the others (e.g. Reference 65);
  • in Reference 89: "Jonas Zdanys, ed. (1986). "THE UNUSUAL STORY OF THADDEUS KOSCIUSKO", the capital letters should probably be changed to title case. Additionally is this a book or journal? If so, it should probably use the same style as other similar refs;
  • in the Bibliography, there seems to be an inconsistent approach to including urls. For instance, compare Colimore to Davies. One is embedded in the title and the other is embedded in a link called "Url". Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 03:53, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Replies:
      • I can't fix the Belarusian ref as I don't read Cyrillic
        • Well I do; it hadn't occurred to me that anyone else would have a problem with it. "Костюшко Тадеуш Андрей Бонавентура – 100 ВЕЛИКИХ АРИСТОКРАТОВ – всемирная история" is "Kościuszko, Tadeusz Andrzej Bonawentura - 100 GREAT ARISTOCRATS - world history" Hawkeye7 (talk) 07:43, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Thanks, added info to the article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:25, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • I might add here that there is no requirement to translate the titles of foreign language sources, and as a rule they should not be because it will maker them harder to look up. However, you should, in line with the other sources, get rid odf the capitals - "Костюшко Тадеуш Андрей Бонавентура – 100 Великих Аристократов – всемирная история" Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Another editor has converted refs into a new style I don't understand; I'll ask them to update the article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I made a couple of tweaks today. There are still inconsistencies in the citation style, but its not enough to hold up this ACR. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:13, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A few comments, not a complete review: - Dank (push to talk)

  • "his enlightenment ideals of inalienable rights and the American Revolution": not sure what you're saying; the war wasn't an ideal. Am I parsing this right?
  • "However, his exact birth date is not known": it's not an issue at A-class, but if this is headed to FAC, drop the "however".
  • "After the Polish–Russian War of 1792 resulted in the Second Partition of Poland, Kościuszko organized an uprising against the Russians two years later": Two years after the Polish–Russian War of 1792 resulted in the Second Partition of Poland, Kościuszko organized an uprising against the Russians
  • "to Europe to his heirs": to his heirs in Europe
  • " a 15th–16th–century courtier of the Polish King Sigismund I the Old (reigned 1506–1548)": I'm not following ... if the King only reigned in the 16th century, then Kościuszko wasn't a courtier in the 15th century (of this king).
  • "which at the time meant a Polish-speaking inhabitant, whatever their ethnicity may have been, of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, however now would be interpreted by modern Belarusian sources": "which at the time meant a Polish-speaking inhabitant of any ethnicity in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but is interpreted by modern Belarusian sources". I'm not the expert here, but this feels like the wrong approach ... either you believe, after reading the relevant secondary sources, that these Belarusian sources are wrong, and there's no significant debate about this (in which case, you can omit what the Belarusian sources say), or you believe there is a significant debate ... in which case, don't put "which at the time meant ..." in your voice, attribute it to the proper sources (you might just say "Polish sources" if virtually all the Polish sources say that), and attribute the Belarusian position to those sources. If you decide to cover this debate in any depth, put it in a footnote. - Dank (push to talk) 03:41, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed other than the last issue raised. I don't read Belarusian, and this was added by Belarusian editors; I don't feel comfortable removing this, through I'd invite you to raise this concern on talk of the article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:06, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support I reviewed this one at GA, and I feel its pretty good. Hawkeye7 (talk) 07:46, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:Support: Cdtew (talk)

  • "Modern Belarusian sources, however, interpret his Ruthenian or Lithuanian heritage as Belarusian" - This seems like awkward phrasing in English; it may be better as "Some (or is it all?) modern Belarusian sources hold that Kościuszko was actually Belarusian" or something of the like. Does that effect the same meaning as what you're aiming for? Note: I realize this is what Dank had some comments about also, just adding my 2 cents/concerns.
  • "whatever their ethnicity may have been" - this sounds too casual; perhaps "regardless of ethnicity"?
  • I wikilinked Voivode; feel free to revert if you disagree.
  • "appealed to the French revolutionary and arms dealer Pierre Beaumarchais" - This foreshadows too much; in 1776 Beaumarchais wasn't yet a revolutionary -- a malcontent and future revolutionary, perhaps. This needs a little rewording.
  • "Soon afterward he prepared a plan for fortifying Philadelphia, a task on which he would spend the coming winter." - At whose request did he prepare the plans, and were they implemented (other than Fort Billingsport)? I've honestly forgotten this tidbit, and if you can't find a source in English, I may be able to dig one up in my library.
    • Removed that sentence, I couldn't find sufficient details in the source.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:59, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I didn't mean for you to remove it entirely; I just wanted to know if you had any more information. I returned home and couldn't track down any more details. Cdtew (talk) 20:36, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Burgoyne did exactly what Kościuszko would have done and had his engineers place artillery on the hill" -- Who's to say if Kosciuszko would have done that (I mean, we can be almost sure he would have, but it's still speculative language). I think it would be better-phrased to indicate this is something Kosciuszko warned about.
  • "The dwindling British army was dealt a sound defeat, the combination turning the tide of the campaign to an American advantage." - this sounds too universal, when in reality you're just talking about things in the Saratoga campaign. Perhaps limit your language to that.
  • I modified your phrasing re: the Race to the Dan; Cornwallis' troops weren't exactly exhausted; if they were, Greene's army and affiliated militia were even more so: after several near-escapes (Battle of Cowan's Ford and several sound defeats (See: Battle of Torrence's Tavern), Greene's troops barely eked out a close loss at Guilford Courthouse. Also, Jan-Feb in North Carolina isn't particularly "wintery" and so "the dead of winter" sort of conveys imagery of mounds of snow and freezing temperatures, whereas the temperatures at that time would have been moderate by other "winter" standards. If you disagree with these changes, I'd be happy to help come up with a better solution.
  • I've made some other changes to the text, particularly in the American Revolution section; feel free to revert/discuss if any of them are off-base.
  • "His situation was not helped by the fact that promised money from the American government—late payment for his seven-year services—never materialized." - you may want to clarify what this means, as the previous section notes he received a "Certificate" for his pay at 6% interest. In other words, see if one of your sources describes the fact that the US government never made good on its bond obligation to him.
    • I've double checked and both claims seem correct, although the original text is not perfectly clear. I am assuming that the certificate - the promise to pay - was never realized. I've added a clarification that the second ref refers to the interest. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:59, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Kościuszko considered a plan of kidnapping the King, but it was rejected by Poniatowski." - this is out of my league, but you're saying that Kosciuszko presented a plan to the king to kidnap that same king, and the king rejected it? This sounds a little funny. Kidnapping in the English language usually indicates a crime, and by definition is against the will of the person being kidnapped. Perhaps you meant something more along the lines of "abduct", "seize", or something else? Or perhaps its a different person who rejected his plan to kidnap the king?
  • "against the three practitioners" - do you mean "partitioners" here?
  • I feel like the "Kościuszko Uprising" section needs to be broken up -- even on my wide-wide-wide screen monitor it looks dense, so I know it looks dense on an iPad or laptop.
  • "last will dedicating some of his resources to the buyout of the slaves" - did this include black slaves he owned. The "the slaves" phrasing is awkward. If its his own slaves, say "his slaves"; if its others' slaves, say "the buyout of slaves belonging to others"; if it's a mixture between the two, say so.
  • These two paragraphs - "Kościuszko's bequest to Jefferson remained legally blocked by his relatives until 1852 when the U.S. Supreme Court finally awarded it to his relatives in Europe, thus frustrating Kosciusko's original intent. In the course of the lengthy litigation most of Kościuszko's funds were embezzled by one of the administrators. [11]" and "In 1852 the Supreme Court awarded the estate, by then worth $50,000, to Kościuszko's heirs in Poland.[6] It ruled that Kościuszko had died intestate, although he had made four wills.[95] During the legal proceedings between the date of his death and the Supreme Court decision, the value of his estate decreased substantially; this was attributed by a case attorney to Colonel George Bomford's use of the estate for his own purposes.[96] None of the monies that Kościuszko had earmarked for the manumission and education of African Americans in the United States was ever used for that purpose" - need to be joined together. They repeat the same information, but have different citations. I'll leave that task up to you.
  • Image check:
  • The image "Thomas Jefferson by Tadeusz Kościuszko.PNG" needs an appropriate PD-Art tag; see the red warning on that image page
  • The image "Tadeusz Kościuszko 1.PNG" -- the black-and-white bust engraving of Kosciuszko -- needs a PD-Art tag fix also
  • Otherwise, the images all appear to check out for copyright purposes and are properly tagged
  • Virtually all of the images are missing alt text, which per ALT should be on all images for readers with visual impairments; this isn't a requirement for FAC or (I don't believe) MILHIST ACR, but we don't want to slight those with vision impairments, do we?

Otherwise, the article is very comprehensive, very well-written (especially for someone with English as a second language), and I am happy to support once the above are remedied or addressed. Cdtew (talk) 15:39, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to address the above this weekend. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:59, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I now support. Thanks for your hard work! Cdtew (talk) 20:36, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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