Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Battle of Halmyros

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by AustralianRupert (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 06:30, 9 February 2018 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Battle of Halmyros[edit]

Nominator(s): Cplakidas (talk)

Battle of Halmyros (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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An article on one of the most crucial battles in the history of Greece during the Middle Ages, between the heavy Frankish cavalry of the Duchy of Athens and the infantry of the Catalan Company. The article was rewritten and passed GA in 2014, using the main sources on the period (Miller, Setton, Fine, etc), as well as Kelly DeVries' study on contemporary infantry warfare, which AFAIK is the only source to address the battle in some detail. I think the article is as complete as it can get, and deals with the various uncertainties surrounding it in an understandable manner. Any comments or suggestions for further improvement are welcome, naturally. Constantine ✍ 15:15, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, this is great, a medieval battle article to review that I've actually done some cursory research on!

  • No DABs, external links OK
  • Images appropriately licensed
  • Put the subtitles for Setton and Topping into title case.
  • Add an OCLC number for Miller
  • Clarify that the wages paid by Walter were per month.
  • charge across even such an adverse terrain Awkward
  • which as military historian Kelly DeVries notes add commas after "which" and "notes"
Thanks a lot Sturmvogel 66, awaiting the second round, and of course any comments above and beyond ACR, as to readability, level of detail, etc. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 20:27, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who selected Walter as Duke?
  • Added, with a bit of rephrasing about the death of Guy. Constantine ✍ 16:10, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's been a while since I've read up on the Catalan Company, but isn't Catalans marched west through Thrace and Macedonia a bit mild for their activities as they headed west?
  • Indeed, to say the least, but this is rather tangential here. I've added "and pillaged" to cover this. Constantine ✍ 16:10, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are these subsequent attempts by Brienne loyalists worth articles on their own or is a general link to the history of the Duchy of Athens sufficient?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:33, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • There probably is enough material to eventually create an article at least on the 1331 "crusade" of Walter II. I have already included this in a condensed form in Argos and Nauplia and Walter's own article; I've created Crusade of Walter of Brienne as a link to the relevant section, with a view to eventually expanding it. Constantine ✍ 16:10, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added, along with a brief mention of the previous dealings of the Catalans with Athens. More on that at Bernat de Rocafort, which I expanded accordingly. Constantine ✍ 16:10, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]


CommentsSupport from PM This article seems to be in great shape, although I have almost no knowledge of this period of history in Greece. A few comments:

  • in the lead, "devastating" is used, I suggest the body of the article supports "decisive"
  • The Background leaps into the Franks being in change in Greece. For someone with no knowledge of the period, I feel a paragraph is needed to explain how this came about. And perhaps a main template to an article or two that explain it in full.
  • Good suggestion. I have added a couple of sentences, mostly in order to provide a link to Longnon's excellent overview of the first century of Frankish Greece, and to include Miller's eloquent depiction of the duchy before the Catalan conquest. Constantine ✍ 21:38, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "repudiate the tutelage" is an odd phrase, perhaps "repudiate the overlordship" is that is what is meant?
  • "Walter of Brienne" could perhaps be just Walter after he is introduced, as there are no other Walters?
  • True, but after longer sections where he is not mentioned, I feel it better to repeat his "full" name. Constantine ✍ 21:38, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • comma after fortresses
  • Fixed, there were a number of commas removed due to copyedits by another user in the meantime, now corrected again. Constantine ✍ 21:38, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • link feudatories to vassals?
Done, good suggestion. Constantine ✍ 21:38, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • comma after Chronicle of the Morea is first mentioned
  • if there was an Aragonese version of the Chronicle of the Morea, doesn't that mean there were four versions of the battle? Perhaps mention that there were two versions of the Chronicle of the Morea when it is first mentioned?
  • Sorry, my mistake: the Catalan version is the same as the Aragonese version. Corrected. Constantine ✍ 21:38, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • once introduced, Ramon Muntaner should just be Muntaner
  • comma after recklessness
  • comma after contradict Gregoras
  • immediatelysurrendered needs a space
  • suggest the sentence that begins "The Greek inhabitants..." be broken up into three sentences, as it is too complex.
  • the "plundered by Catalan troops" sentence fragment seems out of place
  • once introduced Roger Deslaur should just be Deslaur
  • Hmmm, he is not mentioned often enough, and per my comment on Walter of Brienne above, I feel it better to repeat his full name there. Constantine ✍ 21:38, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • need to make it clear that Frederick II of Sicily was Aragonese
  • is there a link for vicars-general?
  • There is, but it concerns only the ecclesiastical position. Constantine ✍ 21:38, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1370–71 → 1370–1371? Also 1386–88
  • I also had a query about who the leader of the Catalans was
  • The image licensing all looks fine to me.

That's me done. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:12, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot Peacemaker67 for your thorough review. How was the article in terms of comprehensibility? Are there any further areas where more (or less) detail might be better? Cheers, Constantine ✍ 21:38, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's great. Given I had almost no knowledge of this period in Frankish Greek history, I think it is very readable now that it has some introduction to set the scene a bit better. The accounts of the battle are obviously not terribly detailed, but if that is all there is on it, one can't quibble. Supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:15, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Dipa1965 To me it is already fine for A-class. A few subjective comments:

  • Perhaps some subsections might be added, for better clarity. E.g. the section about battle location. I am not sure about that, maybe it's just my way of organizing an article.
  • Antoine Bon's view on the battle location should be added. See Bon, Antoine La Morée franque. Recherches historiques, topographiques et archéologiques sur la principauté d’Achaïe, Editions E. de Boccard, Paris, 1969, p.187-188.

Great job as usual.--Dipa1965 (talk) 09:10, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dipa1965, thanks for your kind words. Both suggestions are good points, done. (Thanks particularly for Bon, I can't understand why I hadn't used him already.) Any other comments or suggestions, above and beyond ACR requirements? Constantine ✍ 12:33, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A map indicating the course of the Catalan expedition in mainland Greece and the location of Halmyros...it would be nice to have that one. Do you think that your map at Commons, Greece_in_1278.svg is ok for that purpose? But we don't know the exact movements of the Company when they were in Walter's service. Would a simple trail from Thessalonica to Halmyros be sufficient?--Dipa1965 (talk) 18:02, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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