Wikipedia:Peer review/John Galsworthy/archive1

John Galsworthy

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Over the years we've had several English authors (and authors in English) pass through PR on their way to FA. I hope Galsworthy will be a successor to Arnold Bennett, Ian Fleming, Somerset Maugham, Bernard Shaw, J. R. R. Tolkien, Hugh Walpole, Evelyn Waugh, P. G. Wodehouse and several others. Comments on content, prose, sourcing and anything else will be gratefully received. Tim riley talk 16:04, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:LEAD

The Lead says "The Forsyte Chronicles is similar in many ways to Galsworthy's family, and the patriarch, Old Jolyon, is modelled on his father." Unless I missed it, this is not mentioned (or sourced) anywhere in the article below. Please review the Lead to be sure that all the assertions are drawn from content that is included and sourced below. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:48, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Both are mentioned in the main text. Could repeat mentions if wanted. Tim riley talk 17:29, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Now I see that the father-Jolyon connection is mentioned in "Early years", but I don't see anything about how the rest of the family was similar to Galsworthy's. I searched for "family". Can you point out where it is mentioned? -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:41, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Third para of Reputation, but could expand earlier if wanted. Tim riley talk 17:57, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

It's a little oblique. If you can think of an efficient way to mention it more clearly around other Ada mentions, it might be helpful. But I agree that it is sorta covered. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:02, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Added a bit. Tim riley talk 18:57, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, better, I think. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:11, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Should you mention PEN in the Lead? Also, why is angst italicized? It is a perfectly good English word, even if it is also a German word. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:01, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Is PEN that notable? Hardly heard of it till revising this article. You're right about angst: the OED admits it unitalicised (and now I think about it if it were solely a German word it would need a capital A). Tim riley talk 18:45, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

If PEN is not worth mentioning in the Lead, it should not get its own table at the bottom and a further bold mention/link in the Idiot Box. Galsworthy was its first official, and longest-serving (12 years), president; the organization is over a century old. During his tenure, it grew to become an international organization with a presence in dozens of countries, advocating for writers' rights and freedoms. It might be worthwhile looking through his key biographies' indices to see what they say about it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:10, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree that there is overkill in re the PEN club, but it has been shoehorned into the info-boxes of successive presidents. I'd happily blitz from this article, but that would put it out of kilter with those of H. G. Wells and successors. Neither Dupré not Gindin makes a production number of his presidency of the club, but I think info-boxes for authors are pretty pointless and of little importance and it will do no great harm to leave the PEN club reference untouched. There is a case to be made for an RFC to remove the succession box from all the info-boxes, but I honestly think it's too much trouble. Tim riley talk 23:01, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Gog the Mild

No need to respond to any of these suggestions. If you like any, implement them; otherwise, don't.

• I would be inclined to run the last two paragraphs of the lead together.

• A bit of slab of text if I did that. I'll pass on that one.

• Second sentence, is it possible to avoid "known" twice?

• Done.

• "Born to a comfortable upper-middle class family". I am not sure that "comfortable" will travel well.

• Good thinking. Adjusted.

• "reflecting among other themes". A comma after "reflecting"?

• Yes, and done.

• "Old Jolyon, is modelled on his father." Perhaps 'Galsworthy's father'?

• Done.

• I am not personally sure that the scattering of French bon mots works, or will be broadly understood, on the English language Wikipedia. If you keep them, they should be in lang templates.

• I think I am right in saying that all the French-derived terms are in the OED. In fact now I look I suspect I must unitalicise at least one which the OED prints in Romic.

• "and began writing plays for other amateur productions." I am not sure this works. Other than what?

• I'm not sure, and never was. I've ditched it.

• Link South Seas?

• Quite so. Done.

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:18, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Gog. Tim riley talk 16:06, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

• "The novel was reviewed enthusiastically". And which work would this be? I cannot find a previous mention of a novel.
• "There were there four more reprints".
• "and went to France as a volunteer". Is it known when?
• "He had included essays on some of these topics". Delete "had".
• Who is Lily Sauter, and why is her death of note?
• "They were published in a single volume". I am unsure what "they" refers to - the two novels and hte two interludes?
• " The citation for Galsworthy's award was". What follows seems to be an excessively brief citation. *Any reason why R. M. Barry twice, then Sir James Barrie?

• "Galsworthy continued writing plays until his last years, from The Silver Box in 1906 to The Roof in 1929." Given that he died in 1933, 1929 is hardly "his last years".
• Suggest just one paragraph in "Other writing".

Gog the Mild (talk) 21:16, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Comments from MyCatIsAChonk

Thanks for your review on Stravinsky. Happy to give this a review! Note that I'm not quite an English professor, so take any prose corrections with caution. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:56, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

After finishing, I realize a lot of my comments were about comma placements after prepositional phrases, so I'm fully prepared to be proved wrong. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:56, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Life and career

• In 1876 he was sent - Comma after 1867
• Wikilink second-class honours degree just to clarify it for non-Brits (or maybe even just me), maybe to British undergraduate degree classification
• After returning to England in September 1891 Galsworthy - Comma
• His father arranged further foreign trips to distract him from his emotional troubles and to develop his legal education by studying aspects of maritime law at close quarters with a view to specialising in it once back at home. - There's a lot to glean from this sentence, perhaps split it; "His father arranged further foreign trips to distract him from his emotional troubles and to develop his legal education. This included studying aspects of maritime law at close quarters with a view to specialising in it once back at home."
• In November 1892 Galsworthy - Comma
• In 1904 Galsworthy - Comma
• In 1895 Galsworthy - Comma
• Personally, I dislike the semicolon in the heading "First books; marriage". I think "First books and marriage" would look neater
• Nevertheless the young publisher - Comma after nevertheless
• In 1904 Galsworthy's father - Comma
• In March The Man of Property was published by William Heinemann, and in December Harley - Comma after March and another after December
• The second paragraph of "Growing fame" was a bit confusing to me; I wasn't sure why the quotes ended in commas until I reached the third one and I realized it's a list of quotes. I think the quotes should be separated into individual sentences, rather than one very long list.
• In 1912 and 1913 he carried - Comma
• In 1916 Sheila - Comma
• Wikilink defend Belgium against German invasion to German invasion of Belgium (1914) (spoiler alert!)
• story, "Indian Summer of a Forsyte" depicting - Comma after the unquote
• In 1919 the American Academy - Comma
• At the St Martin's Theatre, London, in 1920 Galsworthy - Comma after 1920
• A month later the International PEN Club - Comma after a month later
• In May 1922 the three Forsyte - Comma
• At Bury the Galsworthys entertained - Comma after Bury
• Between 1926 and 1928 Galsworthy worked - Comma
• In 1929 Galsworthy was offered - Comma
• Although it is a more prestigious honour than a knighthood it confers no title, - Comma after knighthood
• Over the following three years he received honorary - Comma after three years
• In 1931 he began what developed - Comma
• In late 1932 he was awarded - Comma

Works

• Wikilink wikt:longhand
• The image of the trilogy has no caption- this may be intentional, but thought it was worth saying here.
• After these Fréchet lists - Comma after these
• rather than the crux of, the plot. - Cut comma

Honours and beyond

• Considering "Honours" is so short, I think it'd make sense as a subheader under "Reception".
• In 1927 D. H. Lawrence - Comma

Overall

• Adding birth/death years to the short description might be beneficial

Thank you very much for these points. I'll enjoy working through them. Tim riley talk 13:02, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Comments from KJP1

Shall read through, and comment, over the next few days. KJP1 (talk) 07:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Lead

• First immediate thought; am I missing the bluelink to The Forsyte Saga (1967 TV series)? It’s referenced in both the lead, and the final para. of the Reputation section, but I can’t see a link.

• Mea culpa. Now linked.

Early years

• Parkfield/Galsworthy House - If the Pevsners weren’t in boxes, I’d do you a stub. Now a nursing home, with rather eye-watering fees, [1]! More importantly, it is listed, as a “curiosity”, by Historic England, [2]. Will do a stub before you hit FAC.

• Bless you! That will be excellent.

• “Devonshire yeoman” - although this sounds delightfully bucolic, and I’m sure reflects the source, I’m not sure yeoman will be commonly understood. If he was a farmer, perhaps that would be clearer. However, this [3] (RS?) suggests that John Galsworthy II made his first fortune as a dealer in marine stores in the boom town which Plymouth became during the Napoleonic Wars, and his second by shrewd property investments in London, which you cover in the next part of the sentence. I’m wondering whether something like; “substantial wealth inherited from his father (also John), a descendant of Devonshire yeomen who made his first fortune as a ship chandler in Plymouth before moving to London and investing wisely and profitably in property” would work?

• Sort of. Split into two sentences, though.

• “captain of his house XI” - for the benefit of those of us, home and abroad, to whom both Harrow’s house structure and cricket are closed books, perhaps a couple of links, “captain of his house XI”?

• Done. (Though the XI played footer and not cricket. I think from memory of the sources he was an enthusiastic but unskilful cricketer.)

• “In separate amateur dramatic production he fell in love…” - I’m not getting the first part of this. “a separate production? And separate from what?

• Pruned. I was never quite happy with my drafting here.

First books; marriage

• “prentice works” - I may well be showing my ignorance, but I wasn’t familiar with this term. Would a link to Apprenticeship help readers?

• I don't think so, and will rummage in Roget's Thesaurus for a plainer way of saying the same thing.

• “Wingstone, a farmhouse in the village of Manaton” - another listed building, for which Historic England records Galsworthy’s residence, [4]. As an aside, HE records his living there from 1904-1919, which conflicts with your source. Maybe worth a reference, or maybe not?

• The latter, I think. HE is wrong to say that he lived there from 1904-1919, and arguably wrong to say that he lived there at all: it was only a holiday home.

First World War

• Georg Sauter, who was interned as an enemy alien and later expelled” - link enemy alien, and while I appreciate that “expelled” may be technically correct, would “deported” be clearer?

• Yes and yes.

• 1918 New Year Honours list - by way of an interesting aside, but not necessarily for inclusion, Galsworthy’s refusal was mentioned in a House of Lords debate in March 1918.[5] The noble lords were debating the government’s commitment to providing its reasoning for the award of honours, the beginning of Lloyd George’s “cash for honours” scandal.

Postwar

• “more than two million copies within months of publication” - He must have been coining it in at this time. On that point, you don’t directly mention his earnings. Do the sources have anything? You covered something similar in Arnold Bennett, highest-paid journalist / advances for some of the novels. Galsworthy’s combined literary earnings must have made him a very rich man, and if there is anything in the sources, I think a mention might give readers a sense of the scale of his success. Fréchet appears to have written a whole book on the subject, [6].

• I'll have a dig, but I don't think JG was coining it on the same scale as Arnold Bennett. AB was happy to churn the stuff out for the Beaverbrook press at a vast salary, but JG was rather more fastidious. Despite this, they were great friends.

Later years

• “they discovered and bought Bury House” - he certainly liked his listings![7] Would you like me to do a section on Galsworthy and his listed buildings? No, I thought not.

• KJ, if you care to add a section – moving anything you think relevant, e.g. Hugh Walpole's comment – from the existing draft, please do; I think it is a worthwhile idea. Alas it will mean you can't comment at FAC, but san fairy ann.

• Ada - I wonder whether a footnote on Ada might round out the picture, she rather wanders off-stage. I’m thinking of something like, “Ada survived him by over 20 years, dying in 1956”. As an aside, her article suggests she became rather odd - what is that reference to her trying to kill his favourite horse?

• Good idea. I'll knock something up.

Works: Plays

• The quote box - something looks awry in the Plays quote box. After Six Short Plays, 1921 Note 7, there’s a bullet that I think belongs on the next line. I tried to fix it myself but failed miserably.

Honours

• Noting the comment from the reviewer above, and appreciating their logic, I personally think that a separate section is justified. The OM and the Nobel Prize are pretty impressive.

Reputation

• I like the opening passage, but Mr Galsworthy does come across as something of a bore!
• D. H. Lawrence - was Lawrence’s attack directed against a particular novel/play, or a more general assault on JG’s style of writing?
• Fréchet 1979 - the title appears differently here to its listing in the Sources. Translation?
• last para. - do the sources happen to say who benefited from Galsworthy’s royalties? They must have been considerable in the 1960s, and he had no children of his own. No worries if not, merely interesting.
• Last line - anything that can be done about the double “new”?

Notes

• Note 5 - W. B. Yeats is mistyped.

More excellent coverage of a, now largely-neglected, author. Look forward to seeing it, and commenting, at FAC.

Many thanks, dear boy. I look forward to going through them. Tim riley talk 13:02, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

• "beginning in April 1893, Galsworthy met the ship's first mate, Joseph Conrad, who had yet to begin his career as a writer. The two became lifelong friends.[19] In 1904 Galsworthy went to Russia," Just checking the accuracy of the 1904 date, it seems odd chronologically.
• "Arthur Galsworthy sued for divorce in February 1905" From my readings in regards to Frank Russell, this was most likely for adultery following desertion, am I correct? Was John named as co-respondent? Is there no more to be said on this?

That's all I have. Very enjoyable read.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:43, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

SC

• Any reason why "He was thirty" in the lead, but there is "a 20-year age gap"; lower down you also have "20 novels; 28 completed plays", " first of 28 plays" etc

Works

• "Galsworthy wrote 20 novels; 28 completed plays; five collections of short stories; three volumes of poetry; eleven volumes of essays": the MOS says not to mix up written out numbers and digits, so this should be "twenty novels; twenty-eight completed plays", etc
• Nice green books – any caption?

Very little left for me to look at given the attendees above – please ping when you go to FAC. - SchroCat (talk) 18:03, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Gerda

Interested, will comment while I read. I like my own section to avoid edit conflicts but it can be made a list entry when completed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Lead and infobox

• The lead reads fine. Regarding the content, I can comment only after reading to the end, but it strikes me that the International PEN position has prominence in the infobox but isn't mentioned in the lead. Interesting that he - whom I got to know as a "radical", with no international relations mentioned, came to that position, and held it for more than a decade.
  • Because IBs highlight more trivial aspects of a life rather than what is of importance? - SchroCat (talk) 05:43, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
    • Not that it belongs here, but I don't agree. IBs don't "do" anything. It's editors who put something in an IB - or not. Per the greatest guide, Brian Boulton, less is often more. If his holding this position was not consequential (for his life and the world), as it seems when reading the article, it should not be in the IB, and even if it was and it should stay, I doubt that we need his successor who is not mentioned in this article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:48, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
• "his first play, The Silver Box" - I'd expect a comma after Box.
• I had to look up jingoism.

Early

• "Parkfield (now called Galsworthy House) on Kingston Hill in Surrey" - I'd like Surrey sooner, before how the house was called later.
• I had to look up "stratum".

Barrister

• I'd like the image further down, - it's confusing to read the name of a woman that looks like a wife, only to find in the prose that she isn't his wife.
• I'd prefer to have the hope to meet Stephenson in an extra sentence - rather complex bracket in the middle of a sequence of places.

First books

• Reading how important Ada became for his life, I think she should be mentioned in the lead, - all that typing ...

I read to the end of the Life section without concerns. Rehearsal, more hopefully tomorrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:02, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I read to the end and am pleased, thank you! I don't think that the box for his plays helps me much, showing that he produced them in fast succession and gave them short titles, and no more. - I like that "he was known for seeing both sides of most arguments and rarely giving any characters a monopoly of virtue or wisdom". I'll read again for FAC. --

Grateful thanks to reviewers, above. I'm back from holiday and have my books to hand and will enjoy going through the various suggestions. Tim riley talk 15:10, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I haven't forgotten this review, but have temporarily been sidetracked by other undertakings both in WP and IRL. I hope to resume shortly. Tim riley talk 20:09, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Closing review

Apologies to colleagues who have been kind enough to offer comments, above, but I find I have temporarily run out of steam with this article, and am retiring it from PM.