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Christ Illusion[edit]

I've been working on this article for a few days, and wish to eventually get it to FA status. I'd like to know what needs to be improved in order to achieve this, and how those improvements can be made. LuciferMorgan 19:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. The "Critical reception" section describes that the album received negative reviews. However, All Music Guide along with a few other websites gave it four out of five stars and more, which is quite good. Please balance the section. Michaelas10 (Talk) 20:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Section has been "balanced". If you feel this isn't the case, please message once again. Thanks for your time. LuciferMorgan 00:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd say 4 bad reviews out of 6 is negative - that's like 2 to 1. In the section the excerpts from the 4 bad reviews are used, and excerpts from the 2 good reviews. I could change it to "mixed" reviews if wanted? What do other editors feel regarding this? (PS - Thanks for your comments) LuciferMorgan 20:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a lot of one sentence paragraphs,
  • 6/6/06 Arrives, would it be better with just 6/6/06?
  • Avoid using contractions like: wasn't, couldn't, wouldn't.
  • You could remove the chart positions table as you turned it into prose
  • Reviews in the infobox from worst to best or best to worst would look better
I prefer it being alphabetical. LuciferMorgan 07:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Need to wiki-link the band members and mention their full name on first mention
  • Album artwork and lyrical themes, is basically a Controversy section?
  • wikilink the albums there
  • I created a stub on Carroll
  • Indeed, the band, you could remove 'indeed'
  • spaces for references
  • 'however' is used a lot

Just some general wikilinking of people, places, dates, albums etc good luck. M3tal H3ad 03:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

At first I thought the "Album artwork and lyrical themes" would be a controversy section, but there was controversy over bus benches too which was better placed in another section. Thanks for comments by the way. LuciferMorgan 11:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think the lead needs to be 2-3 paragraphs now, You could probably create a new paragraph solely on the controversy surrounding the album. M3tal H3ad 04:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See if it's possible to find new references to replace some of the Blabbermouth ones. The article is very thoroughly referenced, but it will look better if there is a variety of references (fewer from Blabbermouth). ShadowHalo 07:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try, although Blabbermouth is the main resource in metal, and most metal news sites steal their articles from here also. LuciferMorgan 13:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I hope I'm not repeating the sentiments of any other reviewers but I'll give you my two cents regardless.

  • In the infobox, could you be more specific about the recording dates?
If I had this info at hand, I definitely would've added it. LuciferMorgan 01:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead isn't compelling enough. For it to be an FA, I think you have to improve the flow, link some sentences together. At the moment there is a glut of short, choppy sentences, each presenting an independent fact. Try to develop a more logical progression through the prose, linking more than one piece of data into each sentence.
  • In the first paragraph of "Recording", you reference the same thing twice in one sentence... I'd take out the mid-sentence ref; it's pretty clear where you got the info from.
  • You write out "9" and "11" as numbers. Change to "nine" and "eleven".
  • I'm not sure the plural of "demo" is "demoes".
It's actually "demos" (I checked), so thanks for pointing that out.LuciferMorgan 01:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You surround "Catalyst" with apostrophes. WP:MUSTARD asks that songs be surrounded with quotation marks.
  • "Although accredited, Rubin was not seen in the studio by guitarist Kerry King during the recording of the album [4] and is said (by King) to have only participated in the recording by providing suggestions during mixing.[4] The band wished for Rubin to produce the album,[6] and blamed him for the delay in entering the studio.[6] Around this time, Rubin lent production to Metallica's untitled 10th studio album, an action King deemed "a slap in the fucking face."[6]" I think this section is over-referenced. I think it'd be reasonable to only reference [4] and [6] once each, at the end of each citation. If you don't decide to do this, then you still have to delete the space before the first citation of [4].
  • Again, you write "11", change this to "eleven", and do the same where-ever you've written a number midway through prose.
Done, except where chart positions are mentioned. LuciferMorgan 03:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It says to link to items relevant to the context - I wouldn't deem the date wikilinking so. LuciferMorgan 01:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You shouldn't bold Christ Illusion at the end of the section. In fact, I'd advise you change it to "the album".
  • I think it should be explained why June 6, 2006 would be an ideal release date. Don't expect the reader to make the conceptual leap. Also, bear in mind 6-6-06 works in both American and British dating conventions.
  • "number 48 on the Swedish charts [10]" - delete the space before the reference.
  • Again, I think you go overboard on referencing in the "Bus benches" section.
  • Link "August 8, 2006.
  • "62, 000" and "93, 000" need their spaces removed.
  • I think "Rolling Stone" should be italicised. See WP:MOS to see if I'm right. I'm pretty sure I am.
  • "'God Hates Us All'," needs italicisation.
  • In the KNAC review "Christ Illusion" needs italicising again.

I think I've picked this one clean, I hope I've been useful. Seegoon 17:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, which have been of major use - these would've definitely been raised further down the line at FAC. I'll be sure to get to these concerns. LuciferMorgan 00:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the concerns regarding the lead, and'll try getting help in that matter. LuciferMorgan 01:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think you could go down two routes with the lead. One: prune it of details about Lombardo and the Grammy. Or expand it and produce one paragraph on the numbers of the album - release date, chart performance and so on, and another paragraph giving a rundown of the important facts surrounding it: Lombardo, the Grammy, the controversy. I hope that's not too convoluted to read through! Seegoon 20:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've rewrote the introduction of the article - everyone feel free to check. I hope it's an improvement. LuciferMorgan 00:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think you've improved it, definitely. Seegoon 23:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I'm unused to improving articles. LuciferMorgan 00:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Yannismarou[edit]

Very nice. Some minor remarks:

  • Do not over-cite the sentences. For instance:"Christ Illusion was recorded at two venues: NRG, North Hollywood, with assistant engineering by Dave Colvin,[1] and Westlake Studios, Los Angeles, with assistant engineering by Brian Warwick.[1]" or "Rubin was not seen in the studio by guitarist Kerry King during the recording of the album,[2] and is said (by King) to have only participated in the recording by providing suggestions during mixing.[2]" or "The band wished for Rubin to produce the album,[3] and blamed him for the delay in entering the studio.[3]" or "National Day of Slayer, LLC, describing itself as a "a non-profit corporation in the State of Wyoming," launched a website asking Slayer fanatics to participate in "The National Day of Slayer",[16] where all fans would listen to Slayer tracks.[16]" etc. It is not nice to "cut" a sentence in the middle with citations, especially if the same citation is already at the end of the sentence? What is the purpose using it again in the middle? It is clear it covers the whole sentence. In general, use citation in the middle of a sentence only if it is absolutely necessary.
I've now made efforts to address this - feel free to inspect the article once more. LuciferMorgan 21:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with Dave Lombardo ...". Since you mentioned him once in the lead, "Lombardo" alone is fine. "A song penned by Jeff Hanneman": The same; "Hanneman" would be enough.
  • "A song penned by Jeff Hanneman[4] entitled "Final Six" was meant for inclusion on the album,[2] and "Final Six" was originally declared to be the album's title by vocalist Tom Araya to George Stroumboulopoulous of CBC's "The Hour."" A bit clumsy sentence IMO; especially the repetition of the song's title within the same sentence. In general, the prose is fine, but I'm not sure is yet "brilliant"; maybe a bit more prose polishing wouldn't hurt.
I've tried reworking the sentence. LuciferMorgan 23:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Araya deemed this version "much better because he looked like a drug addict!"[38] King arranged to purchase the artwork.[39] An alternate, non-graphic cover was made to appease conservative retailers who would not stock the original version.[40] Certain album pre-orders gave fans the chance to win one of ten lithos of the artwork autographed by Carroll.[41]" The prose here with these short sentences in a row gets IMO a bit choppy.
I've tried reworking the prose in this section you've singled out. LuciferMorgan 23:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In general, the article is well-written, well-researched and well-referenced. Maybe, some further in-depth analysis of the band's musical choices and themes in this particular album (if therei such info available!) would further improve the article.--Yannismarou 18:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I'll see what I can do. LuciferMorgan 20:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Could probably remove the credits section, as you included all the people in the body or add everyone to the credits list. M3tal H3ad 00:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. LuciferMorgan 22:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

M3tal H3ad Comments[edit]

I read through it all again,

  • I'm not sure about this but NRG, North Hollywood, with assistant engineering by Dave Colvin, I think it sounds better as , with assistant engineer Dave Colin 'engineering by' doesn't sound that great, but that's just me
  • The second paragraph of the first section, i think Dave Lombardo should be wikilinked as readers may have to scroll up
  • Lombardo's involvement marked the first time that he, King, Araya and Hanneman, 'he' doesn't sound good to me, how about 'that King, Araya, Hanneman and himself had appeared..
  • Also 'together on record since' on record sounds like a police report, 'a record' sounds better but thats just me.
Doesn't to me.
  • "a mix between God Hates" i know its a quote but couldn't it be spelled out fully to give the reader a clearer understanding, also the album is linked two sentences below
I don't think so, as it's a quote. I don't agree with tampering with quotes, so wikilinked the album for those unfamiliar. LuciferMorgan 19:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although eleven songs were originally slated for the album, only ten made the final track listing., i think 'although would be better after the comma. Also i think 'only' implies a small amount, this is just one less.
  • which boasts former drummer Paul Bostaph on drums., drummer Bostaph then says he played drums is redundant
I'm confused - there's no Bostaph quote in the article. LuciferMorgan 19:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, Araya took one I'm not sure why However is there, also gall bladder could use a wikilink.
  • Additionally, an EP named, additionally then later 'this date' so i don't see the need for additionally
  • limited to five thousand copies and exclusively available at Hot Topic stores in the US. My version, limited to five thousand copies, exclusively available at(through sounds better here) Hot Topic stores in the US. Don't see the need for the 'and' and it doesn't sound great
  • The release previewed new track "Cult", which was made available for streaming on the band's official website the same day. The first part could use a 'the new track' 'made' could be removed from the following sentence.
  • John Milton, could use a wikilink
  • The third paragraph of marketing and promo is rather choppy
I agree upon closer inspection. This tends to happen when you merge tidbits of info from several sources. I'll address this soon. LuciferMorgan 19:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • All Music Guide could use a wikilink
  • These three - terrorism, warfare and religion. could possibly be wikilinked
I don't think these should be wikilinked. When it gets to FAC though, I'll try finding consensus as to what should happen. LuciferMorgan 19:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Larry Carroll, who had painted the, name mentioned above in full, just use Carroll
But then again, as your prior point, they would have to scroll up to see who the article is referring to. LuciferMorgan 19:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Joseph Dias, meanwhile, meanwhile could be removed
  • 9/11 terrorist attacks, 9/11 is very American, perhaps September 11
  • Joseph Dias, issued a statement which mourned the cover artwork, this is mentioned two paragraphs above so is redundant and were talking about lyrical content here
  • jihad could be wikilinked under lyrical themes

Most of these suggestions are just my way of preferred writing, some comments might be useful, some might not. Anyway you did a dam good job expanding this article. M3tal H3ad 12:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Some I think should be wikilinked, though things like "gall bladder" shouldn't be. LuciferMorgan 19:02, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't know what a gall bladder was(heard of it though) until i heard about Tom's operation, then searched it here. About Bostaph, this is the sentence "existing in an alternate version which boasts former drummer Paul Bostaph on drums." Saying he is the former drummer on drums, is redundant. Regarding the Carroll sentence when reading the first sentence i can still see Carroll's name, with Lombardo it's about three paragraph and the Table of contents above. M3tal H3ad 00:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can do regarding the Bostaph thing, though I disagree with it. One, Bostaph is the former drummer, and two the demo still exists so is present tense. Hmm I disagree with the rest though also. When wikilinking, the link has to be relevant to the context and I wouldn't deem gall bladder so. When clicking the subsection "Album artwork" from Contents, you can't see the mention of Carroll. Also "Album artwork" is a new subsection. Thanks for the comments. LuciferMorgan 07:51, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, regarding the lead Grammy, Billboard 200, Eyes of the Insane could be wikilinked, also it says '#5' later on the article it's number 5. I know you haven't worked on the lead much but when you do. The release previewed new track "Cult" i think could be turned to The release previewed the track "Cult", as it's not new anymore and preview implies it's new. M3tal H3ad 00:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
O the groove metal person attacked Slayer, apparently I'm vandalizing by removing his edits. M3tal H3ad 02:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll get onto your constructive comments. As concerns the lead, I'm not sure what else to do, though I'll address the '5' issue. I'm no good with leads really, but I don't see it ending up much different to what it already is, especially since nobody's realled singled it out after I rewrote it. I'll remove the word 'new' as concerns 'Cult', though I'll keep 'preview' since it indeed do that - preview the track. LuciferMorgan 07:51, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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