Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of National Football League annual scoring leaders/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 12:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of National Football League annual scoring leaders[edit]

List of National Football League annual scoring leaders (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Hey man im josh (talk) 14:15, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is #8 in the series of NFL annual statistical leaders. Formatting is based off of past successful featured lists from the series. As always, I will do my best to respond and address issues as quickly as possible. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:15, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

MyCatIsAChonk
  • Nowhere in the lead is "scoring leader" defined- this is likely very simple, but I'm not sure if it means something else (I have no AmE football knowledge); perhaps define it somewhere
  • As above, I'm struggling to understand something- all the ways to score points that you described in para 1 seem to be done by the team, but the list only describes individuals having points. What's going on here?

Hey man im josh, I see no other issues- again, apologize for my lack of knowledge on the subject! Excellent work on the tables! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey @MyCatIsAChonk, thank you for taking the time to review my nomination. I believe I've better defined who the scoring leader is and how that's determined. The wording can be a little clunky when trying to describe these concepts, so please do tell me if it's not clear enough. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:54, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - much better! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 21:14, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Drive-by comment
  • I concur with MyCatIsAChonk - the lead would benefit from clarification that in the case of a touchdown, the player scoring it is credited with the points, in the case of a kicking player the kicker is credited with the points..........are those the only options? I confess my knowledge of American football is not that wonderful either..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:32, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's also striking that it always used to be non-kickers who were the leaders and now it's pretty much kickers all the way. Is there a reason why the game has evolved in this way that could (if appropriately sourced) be mentioned in the lead? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hey @ChrisTheDude, thank you very much for the feedback. I've made some changes that I hope address your concerns. Kicking and scoring a touchdown are the primary ways of scoring, with a safety being the only other way to score, though these are not common.
The positional changes over time are more to do with the fact that positions in football were often not well defined early on in the league's history. As time went on, teams began to have dedicated, specialized placekickers, whereas before then the person who kicked field goals would usually be someone who played a different position on the team. In fact, if I were to do a full break down of how each player scored their points, you would find that a lot of the early "non-kickers" were actually kicking in addition to their regular duties. Don Hutson, the player who led the league in five consecutive seasons, has actually scored by rushing, receiving, returning interceptions, kicking, AND causing a safety! You can see this at the scoring summary section of this page. This means that Hutson scored in all 3 phases of football (offense, defense, and special teams), which would be unheard of nowadays. In short though, it's been the evolution of the game to have people become more specialized in positions instead of playing multiples like Don Hutson did. I considered trying to explain this in the lead, but I felt as though when working on it that it ended up being too heavily based on synthesis. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:54, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
MrLinkinPark333 verification check
  • "A player is not credited with points scored if they pass for a touchdown." - I don't see this mentioned in NFL/Pro Football HOF.
  • I think the NFL reference should come after the "For statistical purposes" sentence as it's verified there.
  • "before being absorbed into the NFL in 1970" - needs a source to show that in 1970, the AFL was merged into the NFL.
  • Dutch Clark was a Tailback.
  • There's no position for Jack Manders's 1934 season at his Pro Football Reference source. Extra source needed.
  • Position is missing at Don Hutson's 1942 season at PFR. Extra source needed.
  • Elroy Hirsch played as an End in 1951.
  • Lou Groza was a Tackle in 1957.
  • Don Chandler was Punter in 1963.
  • 1967 Cardinals should be linked to the NFL team at 1967 St. Louis Cardinals (NFL) season.
  • Mason Crosby is no longer with the Packers, so he doesn't need to be shaded in 2007 as active.
  • Jason Myers has 143 points in 2022.
  • "Gostkowski also has the second longest streak of consecutive seasons" - he's tied for second (as Cappelletti had 4 back to back season records as well). --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 03:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for the feedback @MrLinkinPark333. Some of the issues stemmed from my thought process changing from when I started out and I thought I had cleaned all of that up, but apparently not. I believe I’ve addressed and implemented all of your suggestions with a single exceptions.
  • "A player is not credited with points scored if they pass for a touchdown." - I don't see this mentioned in NFL/Pro Football HOF.
  • The passer is not the player who scores the touchdown, the receiver is the one who does so, which is why I added the clarification. We also wouldn't credit the holder on a field goal with points scored for a similar reason. After thinking about it, I've actually removed this line because I don't think the clarification is necessary.
I'm glad these were caught but I do feel embarassed there were this many things to catch. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:52, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No worries! It's better to catch them now instead of having them missed. The remaining points above that haven't been resolved are: Jack Manders's 1934 position needs extra source, and the "For statistical purposes" could be cited with the NFL source. Thank you for the quick changes :) MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 23:22, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hey man im josh: in case you haven't seen my comment above. MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:43, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey @MrLinkinPark333: I did not actually see your comment and then I was on vacation during the time of your last ping. While I know Twitter is not a reliable source, I wanted to share this tweet with you to help explain the situation. I did find the paper on Newspapers.com and I thought I had it in my bookmarks, but apparently not. The gist of what I found was that he was a halfback (note that the article in that tweet mentions room in the backfield for him) but that he also had kicking duties and, because of his record breaking season and his success, they did not want to not give him some type of All-Pro credit. So, because of the All-Pro designation and the lack of placekicker as a designated position until quite some time later, it creates a bit of confusion. Does this help to clear it up? Hey man im josh (talk) 13:18, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
With those articles, those articles doesn't specifically say he was a halfback. As the sources say he was a placekicker in 1934, I think it'd be better to cite the newspaper (and not the twitter post) that say he was a placekicker for now. If you happen to see a source that says he was a halfback in 1934, you could add or swap out the source. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@MrLinkinPark333: It specifically mentions him as being part of the backfield in that link. As mentioned, placekicker was not a designated position at the time and "Honor man" is not an acceptable position to list either. Hey man im josh (talk) 02:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Then in that case, I think you should either need a source that specifically mentions he was a halfback in 1934 (doesn't have to be the one mentioned from twitter) or remove the position for 1934. This is currently original research as the halfback isn't the only offensive backfield position. MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 03:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@MrLinkinPark333: His whole career he was designated as a fullback or a halfback, as evidenced by the already included reference. It's very clearly not original research. Never the less, I have added an additional newspaper reference that refers to him as a halfback. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the extra citation! The only other thing is the "For statistical purposes" sentences could be cited with the NFL citation, then you're all set for verification check. MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 17:01, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@MrLinkinPark333: There's nothing to cite, as it's not even explained in most situations because it usually goes without saying. Players in the NFL do not get points for an assist (passing the ball to a player who crosses into the end zone). I even reached out to Pro-football-reference.com about this and they thought a clarification on this point was unnecessary. The typical definition is "Total points scored by all means" and when you go to the Scoring Summary table on a page, such as this one, you can see that passing touchdowns are not listed anywhere. This is because, as mentioned, the person who assists in scoring the points is not the person actually scoring said points. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:12, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I suggested this part could be cited as one of your citations, NFL operations, as all of this verified in terms of the types of points. Since this is only mentioned in the lead, I thought that reusing the citation here would be helpful. However, as these types of points are already cited earlier in the paragraph, the citation may not be needed to be reused here. In this case, I don't mind skipping over this point. As that was the last thing leftover from above, I'll give this a support. Thank you for working on the remaining points quickly! MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 23:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review – Appropriate free licenses, captions and alt text are included with all images used in the article. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review passed, promoting. --PresN 03:16, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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