Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Meshuggah/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:34, 19 September 2008 [1].

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Meshuggah

Nominator(s):  LYKANTROP  ✉

previous FAC (21:55, 25 August 2008)

This is an article about a Swedish experimental band. Since the first nomination I discussed and (hopefully) fixed all of its problems. It was a bit expanded as well.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 20:25, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose per 1c, which calls for factual accuracy. Certain statements are misleading, for example;

• "The album had positive reviews, though it was not commercially successful.[6]" - According to whom? Whether an album is "commercially successful" is subjective, and mere opinion. In this case, it's the opinion of the person who wrote the biography you've cited. Furthermore, where are these positive reviews? Or is this another opinion of the biographer? Opinions are being flaunted as fact here, and deliberately misleading the reader.
• "Destroy Erase Improve was released in July 1995, with positive response from critics for the "heady tempos and abstract approach".[1][12]" - What critics? The way the statement is worded suggests a whole swathe of critics positively received the album, when in actual fact, only Allmusic is being cited. Please name the writer and publication who believes that the album had "heady tempos and abstract approach", and not just attribute it to "critics". "Critics" can be 10, or a 100.
• "After the new album and the live performances, Meshuggah was beginning to be recognized by mainstream music, guitar, drum and metal magazines.[1][6]" - According to who? This is yet another opinion being flaunted as fact. You need to learn to differentiate opinion from fact. Name the writers and publications who make the assertion.
• "In 2003, rhythm guitarist Hagström said about the possible musical direction of the band's next album" - The word "next" is redundant phrasing.
• "Meshuggah has often esoteric lyrics,[1] which deal with often conceptual themes[19] such as existentialism.[21]" - More opinion being flaunted as fact. It's all personal interpretation.
• THe "Musical style" section flaunts opinion as fact extensively. At the end of the day, just because Critic A thinks the band is "innovative" etc. doesn't make it fact - the average person might think it's rather stale. Opinions need to be attributed to the mouths of those in question in the actual article. LuciferMorgan (talk) 21:01, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I must disagree. I will give you an example of what you are saying. You are the main editor of Jihad (song) (check). It is a FA and you seem to be happy with it. Have a look at Jihad (song)#Musical structure. The second sentence says "A skittering vamp leads into the track, during which Lombardo shimmers his hi-hat." That is all. But according to who? "skittering vamp"? That is an opinion of one music journalist. The next statements: "Smoothly mixing up tempos, the band build the song with a fast,[7] "wonky, catchy and angular"[8] guitar riff reminiscent of the breakdown in 1986's "Angel of Death".[9] This guitar riff decelerates before bursting forward again in two-bar stretches underpinned by Lombardo's pounding, fifth-gear drumming.[7]" This is a salvo of opininated glorifying statements with no trace of the author.

Where is your border between a fact and an opinion? You can pick every single sentence in every article and ask "according to who?" But that does not make the statement be an opinion. Let me give you an example. Hoysala architecture - lead section: "Hoysala influence was at its peak in the 13th century". Should there be "According to most of scholars, historics and architects, Hoysala influence was at its peak in the 13th century."? Is this what you want me to write? If you see Michelangelo article: "Michelangelo's output in every field during his long life was prodigious" Is this not an opinion? Somebody can think that Michelangelo was inapt. Do you think there should be According to....etc.? Everything is subjective. There is no general objectivity. Opinion is on Wikipedia if someone says: "Michelangelo is better than Leonardo da Vinci".

Wikipedia is based on reliable sources and scholarship. Scholars (in art) say that Michelangelo was a prodigy. Thus every single encyclopedia on the world says that Michelangelo was a prodigy (or something with the same meaning) without saying "according to..etc". Although being and not being prodigy is totally subjective, questionable etc..

"Meshuggah have an innovative style." and such statements have several reliable sources, written by scholars (renowned music journalists in this case). Thus I can write this down to wikipedia as it is. I focused also to have more sources for the contentious statements. In this case, there is the footnote instead of your "according to...". Every statement is "according to its footnote - source". Every FA on the wikipedia has tons of such statements like "Salvador Dalí was a skilled draftsman." But they can be said as a fact, because they have reliable sources.

Many editors including several admins told me that this article is allright for FAC. I do not think that they all would miss such a fundamental error.

If you think that there are controversial statements sourced by the official biography, tell me properly and exactly which ones. But I used the source carefully according to WP:PRIMARY and I dont think that it is used incorrectly in the article.

--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 22:46, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

All I can say is that I fully disagree with your statements, and as concerns "Jihad", that section was written at the behest of other editors - I did not put that in of my own accord. Furthermore, all the examples I have picked out have validity as far as I am concerned. Take this for example; "With the groundbreaking Destroy Erase Improve..". Says who? Are you telling me that it's taken for granted by every music journalist that this specific album is "groundbreaking"? I mean, really - what a load of rubbish. I stand by previous statements, and I stand by my oppose. LuciferMorgan (talk) 19:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I would like to know what does mean that you "fully disagree" with my statements. Does it mean that you disagree with my interpretation of how Wikipedia is written? That would mean that you think, that every second sentence should have its author right in the text? That would mean that all FAs (and everything else too of course) on Wikipedia is wrongly written. Which guideline says that the author should be cited directly in the text even next to the inline citation?

I'll give you another short example: Featured article Salvador Dalí#Symbolism: "The elephants, inspired by Gian Lorenzo Bernini's sculpture base in Rome of an elephant carrying an ancient obelisk,[53] are portrayed "with long, multi-jointed, almost invisible legs of desire"[54] along with obelisks on their backs. Coupled with the image of their brittle legs, these encumbrances, noted for their phallic overtones, create a sense of phantom reality. "The elephant is a distortion in space", one analysis explains, "its spindly legs contrasting the idea of weightlessness with structure."[54]" Do you think that this is all wrong written? In a FA? But this is only one single example.

Lets take another one: El Greco#Technique and style "The primacy of imagination and intuition over the subjective character of creation was a fundamental principle of El Greco's style." or even nicer "In his mature works El Greco demonstrated a characteristic tendency to dramatize rather than to describe.[2] The strong spiritual emotion transfers from painting directly to the audience."(...)"A significant innovation of El Greco's mature works is the interweaving between form and space; a reciprocal relationship is developed between the two which completely unifies the painting surface." So you disagree that all the examples I am giving you all the time are correctly written? Do you really disagree with this?

What is the difference between "The album had positive reviews, though it was not commercially successful.[6]" or "After the new album and the live performances, Meshuggah was beginning to be recognized by mainstream music, guitar, drum and metal magazines.[1][6]" and (from El Greco#Technique and style): "Lacking the favor of the king, El Greco was obliged to remain in Toledo, where he had been received in 1577 as a great painter.[34]"

You asked about this statement from Meshuggah: "What critics? The way the statement is worded suggests a whole swathe of critics positively received the album, when in actual fact, only Allmusic is being cited. Please name the writer and publication who believes that the album had "heady tempos and abstract approach", and not just attribute it to "critics". "Critics" can be 10, or a 100." Should we require from the El Greco article "Who from Toledo?" The way the statement is worded suggests a whole Toledo positively received El Greco, when in actual fact, only one book is being cited. "Toledo" can be 10 or several 1000s.".

The Jihad song contains things like "wonky, catchy and angular guitar riff" without the author. Meshuggah has no such obvious personal interpretation like "wonky" or "catchy" in the text without mentioning the author. If you disagree with the statements in the Meshuggah article, you must disagree with the text in Jihad article as well. You plead the other editors, but how can the article be a FA if the text wrong? Whot does it mean ""Jihad", that section was written at the behest of other editors"? It was still written by you (see this and this). Are you not editing the wikipedia voluntarily? Is someone forcing you to make wrong edits? You should disagree with that thing in the Jihad article (and you did kind of disown it), but you show it off on your userpage. Why don't you remove the "wonky" and "catchy" from the article if it must be wrong? Why is there no "Says who?" on the Jihad talkpage written by you? Why are you proud of Jihad, but oppose Meshuggah? And then you give an example the "groundbreaking" and add "I mean, really - what a load of rubbish.". I really don't want to sound offensive (cause it is not meant to be), but what you've just said is non-neutral personal disagreement with the text in the article. I understand that you do not agree with what the music journalists said, but that is your own opinion. Maybe you also don't like the band and like some other one, but what can I do? Assume good faith please.

I need you to talk more clearly. Answer my questions from above please, then tell me what the problem is and which policy or guideline is it breaking. Thanks for reading my comment.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 22:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• Image comments: Almost all images are free use/verified Flikr photos, or self-uploads. Some things, however. Image:Meshuggah Kidman2 2008 Prague.jpg seems like an image thrown in for the sake of another image, and its caption is borderline un-encyclopedic (besides seemingly hyperbole; give me a source if that's what he usually looks like.) I suggest getting rid of the pixel sizes in the images and leaving them to their default "thumb" parameters so that user settings adjust the sizes. Image:Meshuggah - Catch Thirtythree - cover.jpg has proper fair use rationale and source, with critical commentary in the article, thus meeting WP:NFCC. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 02:03, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I fixed all of the issues.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 20:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, images meet criteria. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 14:11, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Support Comment from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs): I said at the last FAC that I would support as soon as the sourcing issues are resolved. They are still not resolved. Therefore, I am still neutral. All my issues were resolved the last FAC. Sourcing issues are resolved, therefore I suppport.If I find anything, I'll list them here. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 09:38, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments - sourcing is mostly addressed. The last few concerns from the previous FAC, have been addressed by the nominator at an exchange on my talk page User talk:Ealdgyth#Meshuggah FAC. I post that so other reviewers can evaluate the situation for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The last two concerns that were discussed are:

• Rockdetector - specifically this text. The sources I provided about this source are listed here.
• Fuzz.com - specifically this text. The Fuzz.com "about us" is only what we have about this source. The page says that the artists can promote themselves on the website, but nothing more explicit. Although the source contains useful information, I prepared for the case if it will be considered as non-acceptable and I sourced most of its information with other sources. Only 2 statements about festival shows would have to be deleted.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 18:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Just a note that I'm not watchlisting this FAC, we're at the stage where it is up to other reviewers to decide for themselves on the sources. I'll add that on the Fuzz stuff, having it backed by other sources is a help. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:06, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Rockdetector seems reliable enough for me, as there are a number of websites and news stories that mention it. I'm somewhat skeptical about the Fuzz one, though. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 15:40, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I thought the same as well. Fuzz.com has been completely removed from the article.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 11:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.