User talk:MisterCake/Archive 2
 | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Conference season categories
Cake, when you create new conference season categories like Category:1937 Big Ten Conference football season, don't forget to add the category for all of that conference's seasons, e.g. Category:Big Ten Conference football seasons. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 00:55, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Template:Cfb link
Cake, please see my comment here about using Template:Cfb link. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 03:38, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- I did see it. I'm sure I haven't used it in every case but e. g. when Tech plays Notre Dame or another part of the project I did already try to remember and use it. If you wish to say I should use it more, ok then; though that "excessive uses of cfb link" staring at you can get irksome. Cake (talk) 08:54, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- Although I could be wrong, I think a bot comes around and links the excessive uses of Cfb link. When I saw it before in articles I created I think all it meant is that the team's year article could've been linked.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 14:31, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm trying to copyedit this article (as you requested) and edit-conflicted with you. Please let me know when you're done, so I can continue. Thanks and all the best, Miniapolis 14:35, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- Forgive me; saw what you were doing and caught a few errors myself. Will try to stay out of the way. Cake (talk) 14:37, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
 | Hello, MisterCake. This is a courtesy notice that the copy edit you requested for Lynn Bomar at the Guild of Copy Editors requests page is now complete. All feedback welcome! Good luck and all the best, Miniapolis 19:54, 14 August 2015 (UTC) |
- Thank you very much Miniapolis. Between you and User:Montanabw I have received much help from horsey people. Minor points for consideration: Is there any reason you moved the picture of Hinkey Haines over to the right? It seems like one of the pictures in that section should be over on the left rather than all bunged up on the right. Also, in both the yearbook and the source referenced in the article "I-hope-you-dont't-like-it" has hyphens. Not sure why; perhaps to indicate a kind of staccato. It might well be less confusing without them, hence I haven't reverted the edit, but I felt I should note it. Cake (talk) 20:27, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Don't do the work twice!
Hey, Cake. I see that you continue to correct and improve the season results tables of the old Gators season articles, including some pretty difficult fixes regarding stadium venues that no longer exist: [1]. I've even seen several of your edits where you have corrected information sourced to the Florida Gators football media guide; I know you're doing good work because I've double-checked several of the corrections, and made notes to send to the UF SID before they publish the 2016 media guide. When you find an old newspaper article or other source that supports a correction, please do a quick copy-paste of the reference link to the article talk page or my user talk page if it doesn't fit into the current season summary text. It looks like you're finding some great sources behind those corrections that could probably be mined for more information or used to better source the text in the future, and I hate to see your good research wasted in part. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:45, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
- Sure, will throw sources your way when I can. It's as I try to clean up the articles for the SIAA and SoCon seasons. I didn't see any conflict with the information as usually posted outside of a score or two; except they neglect to mention Plant Field often. Most of those early games in Tampa are going to be on Plant Field. Here is a funny source in the lead up to the 1924 Wake game. The 1934 Tulane program says the game in 1934 with NC State was at Plant Field. So was the one in 27. For whatever reason, "Saturdaydownsouth" gets the idea about Plant Field. Cake (talk) 17:57, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
- I'm the one who compiled most of the Gators season results tables in their present form, after transferring a lot of the data from pre-existing wikitables and other formats. For the first 95 years, it took me about 3 months of evenings with a media guide in my lap, an SEC records book on my desk, and College Football Data Warehouse open on a second screen. Any datapoint that was not 100% consistent across all 3 references was noted as questionable, and I spent time hunting down the correct answer via searches of Google News Archive (I didn't have access to Newspapers.com back then). My recollection is that a lot of the names of the "away" and neutral site stadiums had to be found in contemporary newspaper accounts, and there were some (e.g., Plant Field) I simply could not confirm. Because Jacksonville and Tampa have both had multiple stadium venues since 1906, sometimes operating in competition in the same year, I did not make assumptions about venues and names even if I were 85 or 90% certain. For that reason, I would like to add an extra field to the CFB results template where a footnote link (or two) could be added to support the score, stadium, etc., listed for each game. In the Gators decade articles, the media guide and CFDW links are included at the bottom of the page, but that's not really proper. Most of the CFB season results tables for other CFB teams are completely unreferenced. We really should not do that; it makes it easy to vandalize, hard to correct, and our readers cannot easily verify our sources. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:57, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
A.P. Pierson
Cake, all I have is the media guide's all-time list of assistant coaches, which confirms that "Pierson, A.P." was an assistant for a single season in 1928. I would be curious to hear the results of your research. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:04, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
- I did get over the hump and find him; pardon bugging you about it. Dashwood Hicks claims Pierson was there under Sebring in 1927 too. He's the Pierson who coached at Fresno St.; see here. This article first piqued my interest about him. Cake (talk) 15:19, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
'28 Gators
Cake, the article is looking pretty damn good. That said, the scoring table for the Sewanee game is overkill, especially when the quality of the opponent is considered; I suggest that we convert it to text. FYI, the standard color scheme for Gators article graphics is royal blue, with white text, and orange highlights; royal blue and orange do not satisfy the color-text-contrast requirements. Also, Bobby Dodd played for the Vols, not the Gators; that's an odd image choice -- Dodd didn't even play a particularly big role. We should be looking for representative yearbook photos or other UFDC free images of Van Sickel, Crabtree, Bethea, Brumbaugh, Cawthon and Goodbread. Cheers, Old Man. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:06, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks mate. It is arguably Dodd's breakout game, and the Vols won, and also got him in color; but I can see one saying it should be on the Vols' team article. Also, put it on the left side in hopes the right side could be occupied by maybe an in-game picture. I won't oppose any changes like removing it, though. The table was essentially copying how I see it done in other articles. Found all the lead up to the Mercer game in their student paper but no talk of the game after - guess that score resulted in a conspiracy of silence. Is there a reason you used the gamename field for homecoming instead of the dagger? It seems Tommy Owens and Ed Sauls (not to mention Bowyer) might deserve articles. Key cogs of that backfield though not one of the 'four' - there are articles calling Owens the best athlete on the team. I recently learned Georgia in 1927 claims Tech watered down the field in their all-time game. Cake (talk) 15:45, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- Cake, when I was consolidating and reformatting the Gators decade articles in the fall of 2010, I did everything I could to simplify and focus the season results tables on their core data, and to avoid line-wrapping within the table elements whenever humanly possible. This resulted in a number of things: (1) not using the redundant optional parameters for "away" and "neutral," which insert the unnecessary "at" and "vs." before the opponent teams' names and make the table harder to read; (2) eliminating the non-applicable explanatory note options for AP rankings and TV coverage for the 1906 through 1949 seasons; (3) stripping the "homecoming" explanatory note option, which contributed to bottom of the table clutter, and replacing it with a pipe-linked "HC" to Homecoming under the "gamename" optional parameter; and (4) placing all pertinent links to rivalry articles in the "see also" section, rather than using the "gamename" optional parameter, which reduced the width of the table, and thereby reduced the line-wrapping problem. For all Gators seasons after 1950 -- when the optional parameters for AP rankings and attendance are in use -- I also used the U.S. postal codes for the states where the game were played in order to reduce the table width and help reduce line-wrapping. The idea was to focus the tables on the core data (date, opponent, score, location), and not allow them to be overwhelmed by secondary datapoints. Well-designed tables should provide at-a-glance information for the reader, not make them search for the opponent and score. In single-season articles with box scores, secondary datapoints such as game time and TV coverage should be moved to the box score infoboxes. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:58, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
- I see. I think it's nice for the schedule to have an indication of a rivalry or historically important intersectional game, say; but not if it causes line wrapping issues. There are so many Kansas State guys on the Gators 20s coaching staff - guess Sebring brought everybody. I wonder what brought Nash Higgins to Hillsborough High, and who coached there before him. Cake (talk) 12:59, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
- Cake, when I was consolidating and reformatting the Gators decade articles in the fall of 2010, I did everything I could to simplify and focus the season results tables on their core data, and to avoid line-wrapping within the table elements whenever humanly possible. This resulted in a number of things: (1) not using the redundant optional parameters for "away" and "neutral," which insert the unnecessary "at" and "vs." before the opponent teams' names and make the table harder to read; (2) eliminating the non-applicable explanatory note options for AP rankings and TV coverage for the 1906 through 1949 seasons; (3) stripping the "homecoming" explanatory note option, which contributed to bottom of the table clutter, and replacing it with a pipe-linked "HC" to Homecoming under the "gamename" optional parameter; and (4) placing all pertinent links to rivalry articles in the "see also" section, rather than using the "gamename" optional parameter, which reduced the width of the table, and thereby reduced the line-wrapping problem. For all Gators seasons after 1950 -- when the optional parameters for AP rankings and attendance are in use -- I also used the U.S. postal codes for the states where the game were played in order to reduce the table width and help reduce line-wrapping. The idea was to focus the tables on the core data (date, opponent, score, location), and not allow them to be overwhelmed by secondary datapoints. Well-designed tables should provide at-a-glance information for the reader, not make them search for the opponent and score. In single-season articles with box scores, secondary datapoints such as game time and TV coverage should be moved to the box score infoboxes. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:58, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Infobox college coach
Cake, the player, coach, and admin tenure fields have been updated for Template:Infobox college coach. You no longer want to use break tags there. Instead each tenure gets it own set of field. See Hugo Bezdek for an example of the new fields in use. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 04:04, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
I noticed you put Nordic as his ethnicity, and you came to that conclusion based on his eye color. Unless you cite a source or come up with more than just eye color, I think it should be changed. Many investigators on the case, as well as interested spectators, believe he is Western European (Germany, Ireland, ect.). Besides, blue eyes are not a feature unique to Northern Europeans. I myself am a mix of Irish, Scottish, Russian and Polish ancestry, and I have blue eyes. Is there anything besides the boy's blue eyes that tell you/us he is Nordic? Please let me know.--TRUEandHONESTuser (talk) 12:44, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
- Hi there. It was not only eye color, but the characteristics of the skull/head. I wrote on the talk page: "He had blue eyes and the long head made them think he was probably Nordic or close to it (Brit, etc)." Wilton M Krogman, a racialist of the old school, examined the body and noticed "a long narrow head, a high narrow face, and a high narrow nose" and concluded his ancestry was likely "Scandinavia, West Germany, or England or Scotland," i. e. Nordic. Forgive me as footnotes in the infobox are usually frowned upon; will look to see if I can find the source which said nordic/northern european as quoted - I may have been reading old newspapers. Cake (talk) 13:07, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
- Wow, good job!--TRUEandHONESTuser (talk) 14:33, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
- I made the article for Death of Mary Jane Barker, which is how I learned of the case. Glad to see Sonichu and the Boy in the Box have crossed paths. Cake (talk) 21:29, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
John Bland
Cake, while I completely respect the quality (of which I am envious) of your work I have to ask about an edit you made. When you updated Mississippi College on the Master Team Table here, [2] you changed the link for John Bland from John Bland (American football) to John Bland (coach). I just wanted you to let you know that Southern Arkansas, Cumberland (KY) and the Mississippi College coach navboxes list him as John Bland (American football). I was wondering if you are aware of that, or if I may be unaware of orthodox naming schemata.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 20:54, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- You flatter me. I was not aware of that; if it is in so many places it might be best to revert or change them - was making articles for 1921 Mississippi College Choctaws football team and Mississippi College Choctaws football before I edited the team table, many articles of coaches have "(American football)" and "(coach)" next to the name lead to them, and it's just fewer keystrokes. If I may digress, with your recent work on the Oklahoma Sooners you would not perchance have run across the name Ferdinand H. Duncan? He's got some connection to the school it seems, though that he was ever captain might be dubious. I tried to add the captains of OU for years I could find. I was quite surprised to see such a big program have none of them listed in their media guide. Cake (talk) 21:06, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- In regards to Bland, I thought that was a small oversight. In regards to OU, no I don't know too much about him. Too bad this wasn't 10 years ago when I was a huge researcher in the program before I attended a D-II school. (Also, for so many people around here football began in 1947 with Bud Wilkinson. [except Bennie Owen when mentioning the stadium or 4 coaches with 100+ wins.]) I will look into it, the recent media guides don't have too much info compared to the early/mid 2000s. Heck, for OU basketball, I had to look into a 1940s media guide to find out a set of basketball captains, ex. Charles W. Wantland.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 22:04, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Apparently they don't even know "- Pre-1980 captains are still being researched. Contact me if you can help (must have verifiable source)." [3] UCO2009bluejay (talk) 22:17, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- The ones I added have sources, such as the google books link in the 1920 article - OU specific sources. Many places talk of captain Luster (from which I found a few others, the captain-elects, etc.) and Polly Wallace. Cake (talk) 00:06, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Florida Gators football programs
Cake, you've been good at hunting down online PDF copies of old CFB game programs in the past . . . can you see if you can find some for Gators games? In particular for the 1950s and 1960s -- I'm looking to fill out height, weight, home town and other personal information for several of the Gators player articles we've created in the last year. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:13, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- It tends to go by the school. There are some Tulane/Gators games here and here. Here is a Tenn game. Dutch Stanley is at this game. Those are ones I knew already. Will see what I can find. I suspect aside from buying them 50s and 60s programs might be difficult. How's this? Cake (talk) 23:56, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Pretty solid Gators starting squad: three future NFL players and a CFL hall-of-famer. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- Digging the images of Chandler as the Packers placekicker while the size of the backs. Some schools like to catalog all the program covers and not the contents, which for someone with my interests strikes me as nothing but foolish. I found a single cover in UF's digital collections. Here seems to be a list of all those you can find with a trip. There are quite a few Vandy-Auburn programs around 30s-50s, and with recently watching Don Orr carve up Auburn and knowing those Tigers destroyed UF, I got lucky. Cake (talk) 03:08, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- Pretty solid Gators starting squad: three future NFL players and a CFL hall-of-famer. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- @Dirtlawyer1: Might not be exactly what you're looking for, but here's the program for the Bacardi Bowl. Cake (talk) 11:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
Arghhhhhhhh!
Cake, you're driving me nuts when you remove spaces (or fill them with photographs) between headers and paragraphs and between two paragraphs. It screws up the ability of other editors to quickly review recent changes by looking at the diffs, because instead of comparing an old paragraph to the newly modified paragraph, suddenly you're looking at a comparison of a deleted space to what appears to be a completely new paragraph. Please, please, please, please . . . maintain the consistent internal spacing in Gators articles. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:28, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry about that. I'll try to take things more piecemeal...Feel like I finally got the pictures in there without it looking like a collage. Cake (talk) 03:49, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- The photos look good. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:48, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- I was shocked to find the lack of Emmitt Smith photos. Cake (talk) 04:54, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- Especially free-content images. Most of his career was pre-digital cameras. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:07, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- I was shocked to find the lack of Emmitt Smith photos. Cake (talk) 04:54, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- The photos look good. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:48, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks
Thanks for catching my sloppiness on 1909 The Citadel Bulldogs football team. Billcasey905 (talk) 20:24, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- No problem, was clearing up similar sloppiness from my copy/paste jobs on the Georgia Bulldogs. Though on the subject and with my research interest in Vandy, I'll get an image for ole Sam Cutter Costen. Cake (talk) 20:27, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
Rick Casares, Quarterback?
FYI, Casares was the Gators' starting quarterback for a game or two at the beginning of the 1952 season, before Woodruff settled on Doug Dickey as his field manager. By all accounts, Casares was a good performer at quarterback, but Casares strongly preferred the halfback position. Casares was a better passer than Dickey, but he was also by far the best rusher on the team. Casares, as great athletes often can, could fill multiple roles -- he was also the best placekicker on the team. Problem is, football is a team sport, and one guy can't play 11 positions at once, even if he is the best athlete at all 11. Anyway, yes, Casares, was a QB starter for a short period of time. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:04, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- Oh. I saw the navbox was removed from his article, only saw him labeled a fullback, and saw another name with whom Dickey split time. Must learn more about the great Tampan; my mistake. The quarterbacks main role in the old days was calling the plays - a "field general," rather than being an arm, so it was not uncommon for a team's best passer to play halfback. Jess Neely and Harry Gilmer are some examples. Gilmer was so small he had to get up off the ground to launch his passes, like so. Everett Strupper is the one exception; his deafness making him adroit at hand signals and lip reading so he would call plays. Buster Hill's role was more akin to a fullback taking snaps or a "blocking back." A lead blocker who could tear through the line with the ball. Many postseason "all-teams" moved Hill to FB and Strupper to QB though quite sure neither technically played those positions. Guyon at the other halfback was probably the team's best passer, but he also played tackle, so I can't be sure. Cake (talk) 16:38, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
FYI: confused pre-1905 history
Cake, please be aware of this and this. These are exactly the kind of problems I foresaw. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:16, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you for the lengthy explanation; pardon how it is irksome. With hope, if one makes say the 1904 FSC team as well or one of the other predecessor institutions, it may result in less confusion. The main motivation for making that page is, despite the losses and unnecessary historical confusion, with the major colleges outside Florida Bridges played, organizing a team with his own family members, he is the closest thing to a "founding father" figure of Florida football a la Dudley for Vanderbilt or Riggs for Clemson. Tigert had the clout but is a bit too late for that title. An interesting footnote on that first game in Florida: sources consistently refer to FAC having a tree stump obstruct a score such that I don't think it's that kind of incestuous, circular hearsay of a story once made up somewhere, though about half of them talk of a forward pass bounding off the stump whih is surely impossible in 1901. Whether the ball hit it or a foot did, I still don't know. Cake (talk) 17:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- Cake, if you're looking for a proto-founding father, James M. Farr was the English professor who coached the first FAC varsity teams in 1901 and 1902 and actually won a game as coach, two years before Bridges showed up and got stomped with an overly ambitious schedule in 1904. BTW, the 1916 Gators season was a debacle similar to the last FAC/UFLC season in 1904: C.J. McCoy scheduled four established SIAA powers against whom the Gators simply did not have the horses to compete. One of the recurring themes of the first 45 years of Gators football was not that Florida hired bad coaches; in fact, some of those coaches were damn good. They just did not have the star players and/or the depth to hang with the Big Boys. Tom Lieb was the de facto head coach when Notre Dame won a national championship by acclamation in 1929 (Rockne was on his back in the hospital all season with some kind of urinary tract problem). Van Fleet, Sebring, Bachman, Stanley, Cody, Lieb . . . those guys knew how to coach big-time college football because they had played big-time ball, and Sebring was probably the best recruiter before the 1960s. And these guys were all remarkably young when they coached the Gators. But Florida was a small university, with meager resources, that was still playing catch-up with the other members of the SEC well into the 1950s. It also did not help that Sledd, Murphree and Tigert established ambitious academic standards that forced numerous instate recruits to play for Alabama, Auburn and Georgia in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s and even the 1960s. Auburn, in particular, often seemed to steal some of the best Florida recruits in the 1950s and 1960s.
- Side note: all of the commentary that stays in the Florida Gators football article needs to be reliably sourced with a contemporary or retrospective newspaper article, a book, or a media guide. Individual scores and win-loss records can be sourced to the Florida media guide or CFDW, if needed. Games stats, unless they were top-10 team records, probably need to be sourced to contemporary newspapers stories. No blogs, please, especially those blogs for fans of opposing teams. Don't worry about the footnote formatting. You've done an excellent job of scouring Newspapers.com for those articles from the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s; let's get the inline links in there, and then pick and chose the best ones if we have multiples. We also need to be selective in photo choice; poor quality photos should be avoided, even if the subject is deemed important. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:28, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- Though he's before Bridges, one does not find as much about him, and not aware if he traveled out of Florida or played any SIAA teams. Though if there's a story of the first game with Farr like there is with Dudley, I'd like to see it. I assume with the blogs you mean Patrick Garbin's - sorry, many of his books are behind a paywall and some of the same content is found there. I've noticed similar things to what you say about the Gators having no shortage of good coaches. Though it does not always translate and hard to say it translated anywhere else for him; always surprised Cody didn't do a better job. He knew plenty of "X's and Os". Would you be so kind to give me an example of something lacking a source, and of a photo of too poor a quality? As an aside, I really need to find a reliable source for whether Ark had two 90+ yard punts against Mississippi colleges or one. Cake (talk) 18:49, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- Cake, that's the beauty of Farr's story: he was a John-Hopkins Ph.D. who never coached before or after 1901–02, and as far as I can tell never even played organized ball at Davidson or Hopkins (FYI, I have one of the original 1930s typed manuscripts of Farr's autobiography, as referenced in the footnotes). Farr was a genuine scholar -- he wrote his Hopkins dissertation on some obscure grammatical aspects of the ancient Anglo-Saxon language, which is still a standard reference today. None of those kids at FAC/UFLC were recruited to play football; heck, I don't think FAC ever had more than 200 total students (including women), and the new university only had 120 all-male students when it moved to Gainesville in 1906, some of whom were 16 or 17 years old. And you wonder why Bridges' FAC/UFLC team got crushed in 1904? It was basically a high school pick-up team playing Alabama, Auburn and Georgia, which had organized varsity teams since the 1880s. The 1904 UFLC schedule was the height of someone's folly -- probably Bridges'. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:59, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- One will find that folly held in high regard some places for some big time football connected with Florida – thank goodness they didn't schedule Vandy. Is there a narrative account of Farr's organization of the team? I saw the interesting dissertation after you first linked him, and got about ten pages in before needing a dictionary next to me throughout. The Stetson coach that would have played Farr was named Fleming. Cake (talk) 21:06, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- The only thing I ever found was Tom McEwen's book which listed Farr. Imagine my surprise I picked up a used copy of McEwen and started reading, when weeks earlier I spent 20 or 30 hours researching Farr as the university's first first vice president and later interim president, and knew just how high the Geek Factor was, and then saw Farr's name listed as a coach! I can't remember if his autobiography makes passing reference to his coaching experience or not; I'll have to pull it out later tonight. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:27, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- Would love it if there's anything like Dudley's story accepting Nashville's challenge. FYI It might be worth adding a footnote about Bridges and the Alpha Eta chapter like you did with Farrior's booster status. Also, the 1904 Stetson team is holding a live alligator to make me chuckle. Cake (talk) 23:14, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- Already thought about what to do with the 1904 Pike chapter founding. This came up earlier this year when some FSU editor was claiming the oldest fraternity chapter in the state. (I know, right? Get a life.) Anyway, the Pike chapter was one of the four oldest UF chapters, all four founded at FAC/UFLC before 1906. ATO and SAE were founded at FAC in 1884, and Pike and KA at FAC/UFLC in 1904. There was also a local fraternity founded at Florida Southern in the late 1880s, and the Florida State College KA chapter was founded in 1904 (game over, FSC/FSU). Anyway, while a one-sentence explanatory footnote is probably a good idea in the Florida Gators football article, the origins of the UF Greek system should get a paragraph or two in the History of the University of Florida article (another long-suffering project). The Greek system and ROTC are a huge part of the university's history, together with the football team, and after 1973, the women's sports teams. Lace in the academic history and we could two or three UF Good Articles (history, main, football) ready to go in January.
- BTW, I'm sorry if I sound like a demanding, old, grumpy bastard sometimes, but I really do appreciate the work you're doing. With some refinement of the text and balancing of the history, the football article could be in GA shape before the end of the year. We'll need to clean up the graphics, and update all of the footnotes, but there's a lot of good work there already that just needs to be brought forward. If anything, the recent history doesn't need to be expanded, but pared, and that's much easier to edit for conciseness. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:07, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
- Oh you do not sound grumpy. For English's sake I need a good editor, on top of having too much information to handle in one edit. Help bringing it forward is much why I am here, as well as what to leave out. B status was the first goal. Not surprised SAE is so old there. They always seemed the one with the stories when talking to the old fellows. There is a Ted Bundy joke in there somewhere for that rival editor. There are quite a few 1906 pictures we might need to parse. See Dummy Taylor's talk page for one. Cake (talk) 00:15, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
- @Dirtlawyer1: "Only tackle William Gibbs of the 1905 Lake City team made the transition" - What 1905 Lake City team? Cake (talk) 16:36, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- The 1905 Lake City team should have been the first football team for the new university, but the season got cancelled by president Sledd because a substantial number of the players were academically ineligible. There's an urban legend out of Tallahassee that the new University of Florida football program was built with transfers from the old Florida State College, which became the all-girls Florida Female College as a result of the Buckman Act in 1905 (renamed Florida State College for Women in 1909). In reality, no one who played for the old FSC team ever played for the new university team; the only common denominator was Pee Wee Forsythe, who was the last FSC coach in 1904, and the first coach for the new university from 1906 to 1908. In fact, only one person who ever played for any of the pre-1905 FSC and FAC/UFLC teams ever played for the new university team: Gibbs. It was a completely new cast of characters. FYI, a small group of the 1904 FSC players did "transfer" together; if memory serves, it was to a smallish college in Tennessee. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:48, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- It strikes me as odd indeed to say Gibbs played both "for the 1905 Lake City team" which never was and the "one [UF] person who ever played for any of the pre-1905 [i. e. 1904 and before] FSC and FAC/UFLC teams." Forsythe's connection to FSC is even older than his time as coach I believe, as the allegations of professionalism from 1902 on lobbed at FSC included Clemson players. There are also sources which mention "a Clemson fullback" which is either Forsythe at fullback, which is odd, or perhaps it was Hanvey. PS I noticed Van Sickel assisted the coaching staff in later years but still uses the CFB player infobox. Think I assumed any college coaching level got a coach box, but if it is more a matter of notability, I guess there are some I will have to revise (e. g. Bill Spears, Hek Wakefield, Everett Strupper). Not begrudgingly; cfb player is much simpler. PPS do we know the FAC/UFatLakeCity coach in '03? Cake (talk) 17:15, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- The 1905 Lake City team should have been the first football team for the new university, but the season got cancelled by president Sledd because a substantial number of the players were academically ineligible. There's an urban legend out of Tallahassee that the new University of Florida football program was built with transfers from the old Florida State College, which became the all-girls Florida Female College as a result of the Buckman Act in 1905 (renamed Florida State College for Women in 1909). In reality, no one who played for the old FSC team ever played for the new university team; the only common denominator was Pee Wee Forsythe, who was the last FSC coach in 1904, and the first coach for the new university from 1906 to 1908. In fact, only one person who ever played for any of the pre-1905 FSC and FAC/UFLC teams ever played for the new university team: Gibbs. It was a completely new cast of characters. FYI, a small group of the 1904 FSC players did "transfer" together; if memory serves, it was to a smallish college in Tennessee. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:48, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- Would love it if there's anything like Dudley's story accepting Nashville's challenge. FYI It might be worth adding a footnote about Bridges and the Alpha Eta chapter like you did with Farrior's booster status. Also, the 1904 Stetson team is holding a live alligator to make me chuckle. Cake (talk) 23:14, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- The only thing I ever found was Tom McEwen's book which listed Farr. Imagine my surprise I picked up a used copy of McEwen and started reading, when weeks earlier I spent 20 or 30 hours researching Farr as the university's first first vice president and later interim president, and knew just how high the Geek Factor was, and then saw Farr's name listed as a coach! I can't remember if his autobiography makes passing reference to his coaching experience or not; I'll have to pull it out later tonight. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:27, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- One will find that folly held in high regard some places for some big time football connected with Florida – thank goodness they didn't schedule Vandy. Is there a narrative account of Farr's organization of the team? I saw the interesting dissertation after you first linked him, and got about ten pages in before needing a dictionary next to me throughout. The Stetson coach that would have played Farr was named Fleming. Cake (talk) 21:06, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- Cake, that's the beauty of Farr's story: he was a John-Hopkins Ph.D. who never coached before or after 1901–02, and as far as I can tell never even played organized ball at Davidson or Hopkins (FYI, I have one of the original 1930s typed manuscripts of Farr's autobiography, as referenced in the footnotes). Farr was a genuine scholar -- he wrote his Hopkins dissertation on some obscure grammatical aspects of the ancient Anglo-Saxon language, which is still a standard reference today. None of those kids at FAC/UFLC were recruited to play football; heck, I don't think FAC ever had more than 200 total students (including women), and the new university only had 120 all-male students when it moved to Gainesville in 1906, some of whom were 16 or 17 years old. And you wonder why Bridges' FAC/UFLC team got crushed in 1904? It was basically a high school pick-up team playing Alabama, Auburn and Georgia, which had organized varsity teams since the 1880s. The 1904 UFLC schedule was the height of someone's folly -- probably Bridges'. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:59, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- Though he's before Bridges, one does not find as much about him, and not aware if he traveled out of Florida or played any SIAA teams. Though if there's a story of the first game with Farr like there is with Dudley, I'd like to see it. I assume with the blogs you mean Patrick Garbin's - sorry, many of his books are behind a paywall and some of the same content is found there. I've noticed similar things to what you say about the Gators having no shortage of good coaches. Though it does not always translate and hard to say it translated anywhere else for him; always surprised Cody didn't do a better job. He knew plenty of "X's and Os". Would you be so kind to give me an example of something lacking a source, and of a photo of too poor a quality? As an aside, I really need to find a reliable source for whether Ark had two 90+ yard punts against Mississippi colleges or one. Cake (talk) 18:49, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Van Sickel assisted for a couple of years, and never coached again, and never held a major coaching position. He was a two-time All-American, and is not really notable as a coach, so it makes more sense to use the CFB box; that said, he was also notable as a Hollywood stunt man, so the actor infobox could be used too. Don't you hate people with notable second and third acts in their lives? In any event, it's a judgment call and a matter of common sense in some cases. Had Van Sickel ever been a head coach, or spent many years as an assistant, I would go in the other direction.
As for Forsythe, there was a dust-up in 1903 when the FSC head coach wanted to play him in a game against FAC/UFLC. The UFLC coaches apparently threatened not to play the game. Ironically, Forsythe apparently played for the new university team, too, on occasion during his three years as head coach in Gainesville. It's only a guess, but that may have contributed to his contract not being renewed in 1909. He had a pretty decent winning record, which given the history that followed the next 10 years, suggests that something else was at work in his leaving. As far as I can tell, he never coached again. Add to that the historical reputation of Sledd and Murphree for playing by the rules and holding students accountable, one might guess he was fired for taking liberties . . . . Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:53, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
P.S. McEwen has at last the initials and last name for the head coach of the 1903 FAC/UFLC team. I lent my copy to another Gator fan a couple of weeks ago, but I should get it back some time this weekend. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:57, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- Oh good. With that, and if the East Florida Seminary page did not confuse my trust by counting a game with itself (intramural?), I would have (Rollins aside) helped to knock out football in Florida pre-1910. I would not be surprised if Forsythe were fired for such; compare Farrior's account of Hester playing under an assumed name helping to get Pyle fired. To digress, if this video clip were made into an .ogg file, then could it be added to the Tigert article under fair use/CC/PD/something? Cake (talk) 21:21, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- @Dirtlawyer1: Thank you for the recent edits. It does look much better. However, you may want to reconsider mention that Bachman came from Kansas State, for so many coaches came from there (Sebring, Holsinger, Cowell, etc), and he is where that story begins. The same for Cody coming at McGugin's recommendation, as that was considered quite the help. Notice I included such considerations for McGugin's coaching tree. Also might should mention that John McEwan was coach of the Army teams beating Van Fleet and the Oregon team we beat in '29. Cake (talk) 07:11, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
TAFI
I have nominated several articles at TAFI. Some of them could need one more input and review to reach its three-threshold. If you find time for it please take a look.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:53, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
- I have reviewed one of your article noms. You are more than welcome to review one of mine :)--BabbaQ (talk) 15:29, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for checking Persondata
MC, thanks for checking that all usable information from Persondata has been transferred to the Wikidata profile before deleting the Persondata template from your watch-listed articles. For some random reason, I still had Dick Abernathy on my watch list, and saw your recent edit. Do consider adding full name, nickname and other basic information from the article to the Wikidata profile even if it's not present in the Persondata template. For Abernathy, I was able to add Wikidata fields for the "also known as" alias (Richard Abernathy), nickname (Dick), surname (Abernathy), occupation (American football player), education at (Vanderbilt University), team (Vanderbilt Commodores football) [4]. We really need to start doing this for all of our CFB articles -- Persondata is going to deleted at some point in the future, and potentially sooner rather than later. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:16, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Cake, the championship navboxes go after the tenure navboxes at the footer of articles. See my edit on Dutch Bergman. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 05:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Passing of a Gator Great
FYI, former Gators basketball player Neal Walk died yesterday. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 11:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- RIP the 2nd best to Kareem. I cannot help but think of the Floms when I must imagine Walk's game action, as they are a family of lanky, athletic jews. Eddie Jr just died recently, and senior is quite old. Cake (talk) 12:00, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
| Hello, MisterCake. This is a courtesy notice that the copy edit you requested for William Lofland Dudley at the Guild of Copy Editors requests page is now complete. All feedback welcome! Miniapolis 01:25, 10 October 2015 (UTC) |
- Cake, I just read through this article, and it would be an easy Good Article promotion with minimal work. Let me know if you would like any help with the GA process -- I've been through it 16 times as a nominator and few times as a reviewer. It's about time you earn a Green Plus icon. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:36, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- Why thank you Dirtlawyer, and more thanks to Miniapolis for the recent cleanup. Dudley is definitely one of my more captivating research interests. I would feel amiss if it got to GA without someone more experienced in chemistry detailing his scientific contributions, as evidenced by e. g. the talk page. Cake (talk) 15:26, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- I'm no chemist -- it's been well over three decades since my last chem class -- but I'm sure we can scare someone up who has that background. There are a number of active editors who have a chemistry Ph.D., and I think there is a Wikipedians category sorted by that degree criterion. I don't need to claim a GA credit for your hard work, but I would like to see you get one for it. It would not take much based on my cursory review of the present article. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:12, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- I would not take it that way; probably better to have someone other than the creator nominate an article for GA. My preference for physics or biology when I had to take a science course (as well as all made better by the copyediting) is perhaps why I have kept it at a "C". I have tried to do a few things for getting wikipedians with scientific backgrounds to the article and all unsuccessfully. This is the main reason for wishing for the recent copyedit. I cannot say I ever found such a list, but it sounds helpful. Cake (talk) 18:32, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- Cake, I recruited a helper regarding the chemistry and physical science aspects of the article. You may want to have a look at the comments left on my user talk page by User:Cobblet, who appears to know a thing or two. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 10:48, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- I have noticed, and thank you very much. Looks like User:Jayron32 has a nice overlap of these interests if we need another. Cake (talk) 15:50, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- The more the merrier if Jayron is interested. It's kind of fun to work as a creative committee from time to time. I hope we didn't scare Cobblet off by being over-enthusiastic about his participation in a GA Review. It was very kind of him to volunteer to review the article and make the suggestions he did. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:02, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- I have noticed, and thank you very much. Looks like User:Jayron32 has a nice overlap of these interests if we need another. Cake (talk) 15:50, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- Cake, I recruited a helper regarding the chemistry and physical science aspects of the article. You may want to have a look at the comments left on my user talk page by User:Cobblet, who appears to know a thing or two. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 10:48, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- I would not take it that way; probably better to have someone other than the creator nominate an article for GA. My preference for physics or biology when I had to take a science course (as well as all made better by the copyediting) is perhaps why I have kept it at a "C". I have tried to do a few things for getting wikipedians with scientific backgrounds to the article and all unsuccessfully. This is the main reason for wishing for the recent copyedit. I cannot say I ever found such a list, but it sounds helpful. Cake (talk) 18:32, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- I'm no chemist -- it's been well over three decades since my last chem class -- but I'm sure we can scare someone up who has that background. There are a number of active editors who have a chemistry Ph.D., and I think there is a Wikipedians category sorted by that degree criterion. I don't need to claim a GA credit for your hard work, but I would like to see you get one for it. It would not take much based on my cursory review of the present article. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:12, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- Why thank you Dirtlawyer, and more thanks to Miniapolis for the recent cleanup. Dudley is definitely one of my more captivating research interests. I would feel amiss if it got to GA without someone more experienced in chemistry detailing his scientific contributions, as evidenced by e. g. the talk page. Cake (talk) 15:26, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
1910 Florida Gators baseball coach (?)
FYI, I'm pretty sure the University of Florida fielded its first varsity baseball team in 1912. The media guide lists 1912 as the first season. Not sure what someone was coaching in 1910. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:45, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's odd considering baseball is older than football just about everywhere. There is a varsity baseball team on the page just before. It lists him as captain of the scrub football team, and has a guy in his same UNC jacket in the background of the baseball photo. Clearly listed on page 31 as varsity baseball coach. I will also note his pants resemble a baseball player. Cake (talk) 18:58, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
- FYI, that's the 1911 Seminole (vol. 2) to which you've linked. Not sure what to make of the "coach and captain," apparently he was a player too, otherwise the title doesn't make much sense. I also note that the subsequent pages show a tennis team and a gymnastics team. Dutch Stanley formed the first varsity tennis team in 1932, and as far as I know, there was never a varsity men's gymnastics team. The two intercollegiate varsity teams previously sponsored, but no longer in existence, were the boxing and wrestling teams. Boxing died as a result of World War II, and wrestling got dropped because of Title IX and the SEC dropping its sponsorship. It may be difficult to distinguish what constituted a club team and a varsity team in these formative years; most of the Florida sports teams had pretty humble beginnings. To get a better sense of what was "official," you may want to look at the annual University Record for those years; it was a combined course catalog, faculty list, and extension publication. I have found versions of it on-line in the past, and it may be available through the UF Digital Archive. It was helpful in tracking down the full names of early football coaches and athletic directors. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:17, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
- That's right; used to football where it's the season before the year of the yearbook. Buie was captain of the scrub football team and coach of the varsity baseball team according to the yearbook. Baseball and tennis are quite old at most universities; I cannot speak on the curiosity of gymnastics. It only says "tennis club" for the tennis team, yet has a pretty clear varsity baseball team. Baseball gets just as much treatment as football if not more in the earliest yearbooks, e. g. here. Cake (talk) 19:26, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
- Here is a University Record for 1911-12, but no mention of any athletic faculty whatever from what I see. Some passing mention of facilities. Cake (talk) 19:37, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
- There's about a page on "Athletics," but it's mostly policy talk. The "other officers" page lists G.E. Pyle as Physical Director, and there is mention of a recent anonymous donation of property for athletic facilities. Later editions listed the football coach, athletic director, etc. Not much here. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:13, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
- FYI, that's the 1911 Seminole (vol. 2) to which you've linked. Not sure what to make of the "coach and captain," apparently he was a player too, otherwise the title doesn't make much sense. I also note that the subsequent pages show a tennis team and a gymnastics team. Dutch Stanley formed the first varsity tennis team in 1932, and as far as I know, there was never a varsity men's gymnastics team. The two intercollegiate varsity teams previously sponsored, but no longer in existence, were the boxing and wrestling teams. Boxing died as a result of World War II, and wrestling got dropped because of Title IX and the SEC dropping its sponsorship. It may be difficult to distinguish what constituted a club team and a varsity team in these formative years; most of the Florida sports teams had pretty humble beginnings. To get a better sense of what was "official," you may want to look at the annual University Record for those years; it was a combined course catalog, faculty list, and extension publication. I have found versions of it on-line in the past, and it may be available through the UF Digital Archive. It was helpful in tracking down the full names of early football coaches and athletic directors. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:17, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
History of American football
The featured article History of American football, an article you have edited significantly in the past, is currently at around 160 kb in length. The maximum allowable article size per WP:SIZE is 100 kb. While some bits of information could probably be pared down, most of the article is still surprisingly well written and referenced (despite growing in size by 2/3rds since being promoted to FA status several years ago). The article will need to be brought back to a smaller size, a discussion is underway at Talk:History of American football to decide the best way to handle that. We want to preserve all of the good information there, but the rules require us to split the article up somehow. If you are interested in helping decide how to do that, please come by the article talk page where the discussion is currently underway. Thanks! --Jayron32 12:20, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- By the way @Jayron32:, since you have done fine work in chemistry and football, myself and others are doing work on William Lofland Dudley. I try to focus on football in the Southeast before there was a Southeastern Conference, for which few names loom as large as Dudley. He was also a tireless chemist, and that is one subject in my academic studies avoided in favor of others. We do seem to have one fellow with a chemist's experience to help us already, so it is hardly vital if you are busy. However, I've seen you take the time to explain things to others such as how (for smaller than the atom at least) energy is quantized, and I think the article could benefit from your presence. See here. Cake (talk) 16:53, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Florida–Georgia football rivalry:
Cake, the idea is not to include every game in the series; there are 92 of them. The list was selected by a consensus of editors to balance 10 or so that had particular significance for each of Florida and Georgia (or both). The game descriptions were intended to be brief summaries of relatively equal length, and omitted most extraneous details. There was a fair amount of negotiation among Florida and Georgia partisans to achieve the previous balance in the article, and the wins selected for each of Florida and Georgia were considered a top-10 list by each of Florida and Georgia, respectively. The list was chosen for balance. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:03, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- It was not my goal to include every one. I do apologize if I am stepping over prior work and consensus; perhaps I should put the games I was to add on the talk page. Cake (talk) 05:05, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- And the 1904 game needs to stay out of the "notable games" section: it was a major compromise to even mention the disputed 1904 game in the history section. What Wikipedia includes often becomes the basis for mirror site re-writes of our article, and are often recounted without much added research by our friends in the sports media. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:13, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
Please do not use bare URLs
To avoid link rot, please do not use bare URLs, as you did in Kayo Lam and other articles. Use citation templates instead. Fill in the title, author, publisher and date manually or use a script or an automated tool. Thank you. Finnusertop (talk | guestbook | contribs) 17:41, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you for showing me that automated script. Very useful. Cake (talk) 13:31, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Gotta Gator for ya
I started a new Gator article if you care to dig into your sources and see what you can come up with. His name is Broughton Williams. Cbl62 (talk) 01:00, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- Neat, thanks for alerting me. Not one I've heard much about. Hard for me to work with his time, but his place makes it interesting again. My immediate reaction is to wonder if Angus Williams was throwing the passes. Note Williams was taken in the 1945 NFL Draft. Cake (talk) 01:13, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- Since Broughton "Brute" Williams spent the 1943, '44, and '45 seasons fighting in WWII, there was probably not a Williams to Williams pairing. Cbl62 (talk) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- That wouldn't matter, as Angus had his first year on the team in '46. However, I see after making the team, he and some ten other freshmen joined the service voluntarily, so they spent a shorter time in the military than if they were drafted. Would have been fun to have a Williams-to-Williams pairing, both from Tampa, and maybe win a game in '46. Now I have to find who the QB was then. Cake (talk) 00:17, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- Since Broughton "Brute" Williams spent the 1943, '44, and '45 seasons fighting in WWII, there was probably not a Williams to Williams pairing. Cbl62 (talk) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Vanderbilt football
I have been trying to get every Vanderbilt season up on this site but don't have all the time to do it. I was thinking of just publishing just the scores/ wins and loss. If you can help that would be great. You can find me on facebook @ Mickey Sanker. Thanks MDSanker 21:41, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- Hi there. I have noticed some of your edits pertaining to Vandy football and have been glad to see them. Perhaps most notably I recently saw you added the 1952 season. My grandfather, a UF grad, and his brother, a Vandy grad, were at the '52 UF/Vandy game. I try not to use facebook but might if you prefer it for some reason. Also, I don't know that I can add be called upon to add every missing season, but the mere existence of another editor interested in Vandy football should motivate me to do some of them. I can certainly help; a good first start would be my finally finishing up to 1955. Cake (talk) 22:05, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Charleston Golden Eagles team colors for color module
Cake, we need you to include a source for the Charleston hex colors you entered into the module. Because of past sock puppetry and vandalism, we need to properly document all additions and changes to the module with a linked source. For now, you can do to this on the module talk page until we come up with a better system. Thank you for your cooperation and assistance. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Allegra Versace
If you want to, you can take a look at the article about Allegra Versace. That article is this weeks TAFI.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:26, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- You could join the TAFI project if you want to by becoming a member. Once a week you get a new article that you can help improving. It is quite fun.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:36, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Andy Smith
Thanks for the edits. If you move the "Kick and wait for the breaks" strategy description to the short punts section, where you thinking of copying the text or do you think that the info should be taken out of the Smith subsection? If so I would argue that the description should stay since it's short and fits right in being just before the Rockne section and the mention of him switching to offense based strategy. Re Wonder Teams, I think it should stay in plural as the undefeated streak lasted for 4 years and there was no specific team that was attached to that term. Regarding the reference being unconnected, I will link it to the 1920 team and when I get to it put in the primary description of the Wonder Teams in that year. Do you think the dead reference looks bad because it's red and stands out? I used to think so too but now I'm considering putting those in as it calls for an article to be created. Curious regarding your "plural"s quotation is that part of an official writing rules guide or just personal preference? Never seen it before so curious. Rybkovich (talk) 01:10, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- On the move: It was just an idea, and hence relegated to the edit summary. The description is a fine one, and aside from the narrow scope of the 20s for Smith could apply to any who used a short punt system, as I assume Smith did by the description. If "Kick and wait for the breaks" was a motto of sorts peculiar to Smith, say akin to Neyland's Maxims or Zuppkeisms, then it should probably be there. The rest afterwards seems more a note on history or scheme in general to me though. I was thinking of copying the text into one or more articles, and maybe moving it out of Smith's subsection into a more general one. That is a fair point about the narrative with Rockne. I have added so much prose the coach sections may eventually have to go all together some day, merged into the body of text above. The "punt first" strategy would fit Yost and McGugin just as well, and likely other legends of the early game. Perhaps the point is Smith was one of the last of the punt-lovers, illustrated by Brick Muller's Rose Bowl pass as a point of transition, but that is not clear from the Smith's blurb. After his slogan just seems, to be redundant, a mere footnote to teach the reader about the sport's history in general - rather detached from Smith.
- Wonder Teams:"Wonder Team"s is certainly not the way to go. That just illustrates my cognitive dissonance; because there were other teams called "wonder team" and similar. Probably most famous aside from Cal is Georgia's Dream and Wonder Team. Notice even Helms awarded one team. So I don't know whether to call them the "wonder teams" or four "Wonder team"s if you will. No reason for it to be red when we have the season articles to link, but there could probably be an article on them like the Four Horsemen if sourced properly. Cake (talk) 03:09, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- Re Smith and "kick and wait..", I was wondering the same thing. As in it seems like that's how it was in general, why is Smith the one that is associated with it? Was it common with others or even in that era to kick on the first down to get a longer punt? This is standard in rugby (as in just kicking it away when you are deep in your field) because it's much easier to fumble with the bigger plumper ball. Just looked it up and yes that phrase is what he is known for I guess he was very straightforward about it and was able to have the defense required to make it work consistently without taking chances and paying for it. And have a trick play once in a while like the lateral to Brick at the rose bowl.
- https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1338&dat=19271111&id=ds1XAAAAIBAJ&sjid=l_QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5367,2250011&hl=en
- http://newspapers.digitalnc.org/lccn/sn83045120/1952-10-25/ed-1/seq-6/ocr.txt Rybkovich (talk) 05:27, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- Funny how I cannot find a single mention of his running a short-punt formation. The closest thing is in the Rose Bowl with W&J; W&J's disputed TD was run out of a short-punt. He must have done so though, for good luck trying to punt on 1st down out of say the Notre Dame Box. Hopefully we can expand the section on the Pacific Coast and get the "Wonder team" picture up there. Glad you are covering Smith, for Jones gets most of the praise from the Pac Coast on coaching histories despite the Wonder Teams. Can check Lynn Bomar's article for their lampooning of Muller's feat; where our research interests cross paths. Cake (talk)
- Re expanding the west coast, definitely need some Cal info in there, I can tell there was a stanfordite that put allot of time into it :) I am also curious why Smith is not talked about in general and why even Cal fans don't really know anything about about him. I only dived into all this because I started improving the cal football history article and diving into the golden era was something I didn't expect but is obviously required. Found it really interesting that the early punting strategy is on first is allot like the standard rugby way of doing it, where you punt the ball back when you get it in the back in your territory since there is too much of a chance of fumbling it. Or was it a "short punt" that was done and it is something different strategy wise? Where there allot more fumbles when the ball was plumper? Rybkovich (talk) 16:37, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- I've never played rugby but that sounds right, for fumbling was more frequent. Many upsets were due to the rain, causing mishandled carries and punts. I try to focus on the 'golden era' in the south. The short punt was just the kind of formation and/or scheme, a way to be in a punting formation at all times. It's similar to today's shotgun, and more or less exactly like a modern punt formation but you have your fullback as punter, not so far back, and the rest of the punt protection is the backfield. Compare the shot of the 1921 Vanderbilt team. Cake (talk) 18:18, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- Very interesting. Another related FYI re rugby. For the same reasons, it's the team that got scored on that does the kick off giving the ball back to the team that just scored. They get the ball back in their territory and "punt" it up the field which lets the other team get it much closer then the would have if they were on the receiving end of the post scoring kick.Rybkovich (talk) 19:05, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes I think in football whether it's "make it take it" so to speak or not can be an issue with early game accounts. Sounds like you hit the nail as to why. Cake (talk) 20:46, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- I take it you've seen Roy Riegels wrong-way run? There is a reel of it. For some reason, whenever they show it on tv they don't show him going down rather just being met by the tacklers. Frustrating for those who try to make out Raleigh Drennon. Cake (talk) 22:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Very interesting. Another related FYI re rugby. For the same reasons, it's the team that got scored on that does the kick off giving the ball back to the team that just scored. They get the ball back in their territory and "punt" it up the field which lets the other team get it much closer then the would have if they were on the receiving end of the post scoring kick.Rybkovich (talk) 19:05, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- I've never played rugby but that sounds right, for fumbling was more frequent. Many upsets were due to the rain, causing mishandled carries and punts. I try to focus on the 'golden era' in the south. The short punt was just the kind of formation and/or scheme, a way to be in a punting formation at all times. It's similar to today's shotgun, and more or less exactly like a modern punt formation but you have your fullback as punter, not so far back, and the rest of the punt protection is the backfield. Compare the shot of the 1921 Vanderbilt team. Cake (talk) 18:18, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- Re expanding the west coast, definitely need some Cal info in there, I can tell there was a stanfordite that put allot of time into it :) I am also curious why Smith is not talked about in general and why even Cal fans don't really know anything about about him. I only dived into all this because I started improving the cal football history article and diving into the golden era was something I didn't expect but is obviously required. Found it really interesting that the early punting strategy is on first is allot like the standard rugby way of doing it, where you punt the ball back when you get it in the back in your territory since there is too much of a chance of fumbling it. Or was it a "short punt" that was done and it is something different strategy wise? Where there allot more fumbles when the ball was plumper? Rybkovich (talk) 16:37, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- Funny how I cannot find a single mention of his running a short-punt formation. The closest thing is in the Rose Bowl with W&J; W&J's disputed TD was run out of a short-punt. He must have done so though, for good luck trying to punt on 1st down out of say the Notre Dame Box. Hopefully we can expand the section on the Pacific Coast and get the "Wonder team" picture up there. Glad you are covering Smith, for Jones gets most of the praise from the Pac Coast on coaching histories despite the Wonder Teams. Can check Lynn Bomar's article for their lampooning of Muller's feat; where our research interests cross paths. Cake (talk)
Reassesment of History of American football's FA status
I have nominated History of American football for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. ParkH.Davis (talk) 20:06, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Got another Gator
I started an article on Harold Griffin (American football) if you care to take a look and help improve it. Given his accomplishments, I expected to find more coverage than I did. Cbl62 (talk) 02:59, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
- Another one I'll have to learn about. Should be plenty on Lee Nalley fwiw. AP's pick for return specialist on its all-time southeast team. Cake (talk) 03:15, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
California Golden Bears football
Thanks for the edits. In your book is it legit to start a new paragraph by a "That" reference in the new paragraph: "... great team bla bla." End of paragraph. Beginning of new paragraph - "That team ....." Rybkovich (talk) 00:04, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- My edits were pretty minor. Not sure why Brick Muller's page won't let me get the picture higher. I would not go to me as an authority on English, but I've been told it's good practice to avoid the word "that" when you can do. Cake (talk) 14:34, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Got it. I am encouraged by your breaking things into tighter paragraphs per each point, I think thats a better more clearer way to do it. Right now I agree to disagree on one's use of "That", but will pay attention to its use by others. Rybkovich (talk) 16:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Glad it helped. FWIW, Alvin Pierson was on the wonder teams, and I wish I knew more about him. Cake (talk) 18:53, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Got it. I am encouraged by your breaking things into tighter paragraphs per each point, I think thats a better more clearer way to do it. Right now I agree to disagree on one's use of "That", but will pay attention to its use by others. Rybkovich (talk) 16:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Virginia Tech Project Invite
Go Hokies (talk) 04:15, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- I suppose I should with your recent win over Georgia Tech, for I decided to put my username among those on that project given their status in the days I research. Don't know much about the Tech v. Tech rivalry. If I may, Hunter Carpenter looms largest for Virginia Tech in those days. He is still a perfectly reasonable choice for the greatest FB to play at UNC, and he only played there a season. Also, Joseph F. Ware, Sr. was an early fellow of some prominence in the sport, whose first name I did not have for probably a year until I finally asked on wiki; and he seemed quite the blue-blooded alumnus. Cake (talk) 15:41, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
Serneholt
If you want to, please help by improving this weeks TAFI article Marie Serneholt. Any help is appreciated.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:48, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Why do you think this WikiProject is necessary?
Greetings. Why do you think this WikiProject is necessary? It will overlap with WikiProject Tennessee, and you are the only member apparently.Zigzig20s (talk) 20:22, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- Simply to coordinate the great deal of material on Vanderbilt on wiki. They were arguably the flagship university of what became the SEC in the days before the SEC. I am indeed the only member as I just created the project; but I am hoping that will change. I know UVA has itself as a kind of subset of Virginia - perhaps the same could be done for Vandy and the state of Tennessee. Cake (talk) 22:23, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- I think it would make more sense to create a subgroup within WP Tennessee. Is this only for college football, or for the college history, etc? I am very interested in the Antebellum South, and even though it was founded after the war, it has clear links to the University of Nashville and "Central University."Zigzig20s (talk) 22:43, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- Btw, doesn't Category:Vanderbilt University already "coordinate" all relevant articles?Zigzig20s (talk) 23:27, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- The project is intended to be like any other similar university one, such as Wikipedia:WikiProject Georgia Tech, Wikipedia:WikiProject University of Florida/Wikipedia:WikiProject Florida Gators Wikipedia:WikiProject Virginia Tech, to cover especially the university, its people, history, athletics, buildings, etc. There are many Vandy figures on wiki to research and I think the subject like any other deserves a project to give it due importance. I hope such as I've tried to start would not be lost were it made a subgroup. I'm aware of the ties to Nashville (one can see the account of the first football game on page of e. g. William Lofland Dudley). I've long wondered if they had a nickname, colors, and the other mundane bits of sport. By Central do you mean what's now Eastern Kentucky University in Richmond, KY perhaps? Or is there one in Tennessee? To digress, A. J. Turner is a neat, antebellum fellow. Cake (talk) 00:22, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- "The Central University of the Methodist Episcopal Church South." I think this may explain the origin of "Central Library," but I haven't found a reference. I'd love to find out more about the lost plantations of the area. Confederate politician John Boyd (Texas Senator) inherited some land from his father Abraham Boyd (possibly a settler?), later owned by another Confederate politician (and slaveowner), Henry S. Foote, upon which the university was built; but who were the other owners? I did some work on the Category:McGavock family, but there should be more. I still feel like a separate WP is unnecessary; I don't see how it can help.Zigzig20s (talk) 01:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Interesting being methodist and episcopal. Vandy is traditionally the Methodist school and Sewanee the Episcopal one (down with the heathen, and up with the Church! is the old Sewanee cheer). William Stewart Simkins taught at Sewanee. Then Boyd is a Cumberland Presbyterian; and Cumberland is the other, Presbyterian school on the river in Lebanon. I respect your opinion on the project; but I've made so many articles of Vandy personalities I've long wished for one like UVA or Georgia Tech. Would you know what drew people to Nashville? Some of my own ancestors came from Stuttgart, Germany to Nashville in the 1850s. Hard to imagine 19th century brewers in Germany longing for Tennessee in particular. Cake (talk) 15:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- I think most settlers were Presbyterians from Northern Ireland (originally from Scotland). Fertile land due to the Cumberland river I think. I am not certain how the Methodists came about. You may also want to read The Jewish Confederates by Robert Rosen--perhaps that explains your German ancestry. Are you able to find more references about this planter please? There is a Nashville connection via his wife, a member of the Grundy family. We found his picture and obituary, so he must have been very prominent, but not much else. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 16:48, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- My Germans were white catholics. I assume they were part of that wave after the failed revolutions of 1848, but I imagine had to be determined to get to Nashville rather than stopping in New Orleans, say. Ferdinand E. Kuhn was their last kid. The likes of Judah Benjamin and Yulee are interesting fellows though, so I will still note that book in my memory bank. I had trouble finding more than you have already about Van Perkins Winder (found this); but one can find a few things about the sister of his wife, Felicia Ann Grundy (married Porter). She gave aid to the Confederate cause, apparently. Cake (talk) 16:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'll read German Catholics later--I know nothing about them. The article you added may be about his son; the date is 1877. While I think a WP about the university may be unnecessary, do you think we could create a WP Antebellum South? There is definitely a lot of hidden history to be unearthed about lost plantations, planters, Confederate politicians, banking, poetry, novels, paintings, furniture, architecture, etc.Zigzig20s (talk) 17:40, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes the date threw me off. The Antebellum South project does sound like a cool idea, though I've never been a part of broader, history wikiproject, nor do I know as much about how the web is built for broader American history on wiki. Cake (talk) 17:46, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- It would be interesting to find out if that was his son (Jr.). If that is the case, he must have inherited all the land without the slaves. Perhaps a clue would be to find a list of all members of Southern state houses of representatives and senates prior to and after the war. As I said, there is a lot of lost/hidden/"invisible" history, which is unfortunate and detrimental to social cohesion to this day IMO.Zigzig20s (talk) 19:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps you could find out if John Keith Benton was a descendant of Samuel Benton. I wonder if there is an "invisible" reference to Benton Chapel.Zigzig20s (talk) 20:29, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Looks like not. His father came from Alabama. John Keith had a brother named Fletcher Cortez of mild prominence. Cake (talk) 21:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- I think it may still be possible they picked that name for this reason regardless of a genealogical link. Can you find references about Fletcher Cortez Benton?Zigzig20s (talk) 00:49, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Looks like not. His father came from Alabama. John Keith had a brother named Fletcher Cortez of mild prominence. Cake (talk) 21:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps you could find out if John Keith Benton was a descendant of Samuel Benton. I wonder if there is an "invisible" reference to Benton Chapel.Zigzig20s (talk) 20:29, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- It would be interesting to find out if that was his son (Jr.). If that is the case, he must have inherited all the land without the slaves. Perhaps a clue would be to find a list of all members of Southern state houses of representatives and senates prior to and after the war. As I said, there is a lot of lost/hidden/"invisible" history, which is unfortunate and detrimental to social cohesion to this day IMO.Zigzig20s (talk) 19:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes the date threw me off. The Antebellum South project does sound like a cool idea, though I've never been a part of broader, history wikiproject, nor do I know as much about how the web is built for broader American history on wiki. Cake (talk) 17:46, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'll read German Catholics later--I know nothing about them. The article you added may be about his son; the date is 1877. While I think a WP about the university may be unnecessary, do you think we could create a WP Antebellum South? There is definitely a lot of hidden history to be unearthed about lost plantations, planters, Confederate politicians, banking, poetry, novels, paintings, furniture, architecture, etc.Zigzig20s (talk) 17:40, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- My Germans were white catholics. I assume they were part of that wave after the failed revolutions of 1848, but I imagine had to be determined to get to Nashville rather than stopping in New Orleans, say. Ferdinand E. Kuhn was their last kid. The likes of Judah Benjamin and Yulee are interesting fellows though, so I will still note that book in my memory bank. I had trouble finding more than you have already about Van Perkins Winder (found this); but one can find a few things about the sister of his wife, Felicia Ann Grundy (married Porter). She gave aid to the Confederate cause, apparently. Cake (talk) 16:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- I think most settlers were Presbyterians from Northern Ireland (originally from Scotland). Fertile land due to the Cumberland river I think. I am not certain how the Methodists came about. You may also want to read The Jewish Confederates by Robert Rosen--perhaps that explains your German ancestry. Are you able to find more references about this planter please? There is a Nashville connection via his wife, a member of the Grundy family. We found his picture and obituary, so he must have been very prominent, but not much else. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 16:48, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Interesting being methodist and episcopal. Vandy is traditionally the Methodist school and Sewanee the Episcopal one (down with the heathen, and up with the Church! is the old Sewanee cheer). William Stewart Simkins taught at Sewanee. Then Boyd is a Cumberland Presbyterian; and Cumberland is the other, Presbyterian school on the river in Lebanon. I respect your opinion on the project; but I've made so many articles of Vandy personalities I've long wished for one like UVA or Georgia Tech. Would you know what drew people to Nashville? Some of my own ancestors came from Stuttgart, Germany to Nashville in the 1850s. Hard to imagine 19th century brewers in Germany longing for Tennessee in particular. Cake (talk) 15:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- "The Central University of the Methodist Episcopal Church South." I think this may explain the origin of "Central Library," but I haven't found a reference. I'd love to find out more about the lost plantations of the area. Confederate politician John Boyd (Texas Senator) inherited some land from his father Abraham Boyd (possibly a settler?), later owned by another Confederate politician (and slaveowner), Henry S. Foote, upon which the university was built; but who were the other owners? I did some work on the Category:McGavock family, but there should be more. I still feel like a separate WP is unnecessary; I don't see how it can help.Zigzig20s (talk) 01:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- The project is intended to be like any other similar university one, such as Wikipedia:WikiProject Georgia Tech, Wikipedia:WikiProject University of Florida/Wikipedia:WikiProject Florida Gators Wikipedia:WikiProject Virginia Tech, to cover especially the university, its people, history, athletics, buildings, etc. There are many Vandy figures on wiki to research and I think the subject like any other deserves a project to give it due importance. I hope such as I've tried to start would not be lost were it made a subgroup. I'm aware of the ties to Nashville (one can see the account of the first football game on page of e. g. William Lofland Dudley). I've long wondered if they had a nickname, colors, and the other mundane bits of sport. By Central do you mean what's now Eastern Kentucky University in Richmond, KY perhaps? Or is there one in Tennessee? To digress, A. J. Turner is a neat, antebellum fellow. Cake (talk) 00:22, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- User:MisterCake: Who was he?Zigzig20s (talk) 15:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Pardon me, been off with other things. See this from the Zanesville newspaper. Cake (talk) 21:15, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Is there a date for this please? I may be able to find more on newspapers.com. I don't think he is notable, but there may be more about the family, etc.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- He died in April of 1954. Cake (talk) 21:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think this is John Keith's aunt. Cake (talk) 21:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- I can't find any obituaries for 1954. Are you sure it wasn't another year?Zigzig20s (talk) 21:47, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- I am. It's from April 29, 1954, the Times Recorder in Zanesville, OH, page 6. Cake (talk) 22:20, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sounds like a dead end. However, pages 336 and 337 of this article mention basketball and football teams of the University of Nashville. I think you may find it useful. O.H. Looney might be notable. I have zero understanding of these sports.Zigzig20s (talk) 00:03, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you for nonetheless sending it my way. I will look into him. Stagg's name looms as large as any in football. 1901 was also the year of Nashville's best team, which brought up charges of professionalism. I have to wonder if that had anything to do with Payne's resignation, though I suspect not. Cake (talk) 00:44, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sounds like a dead end. However, pages 336 and 337 of this article mention basketball and football teams of the University of Nashville. I think you may find it useful. O.H. Looney might be notable. I have zero understanding of these sports.Zigzig20s (talk) 00:03, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- I am. It's from April 29, 1954, the Times Recorder in Zanesville, OH, page 6. Cake (talk) 22:20, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- I can't find any obituaries for 1954. Are you sure it wasn't another year?Zigzig20s (talk) 21:47, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think this is John Keith's aunt. Cake (talk) 21:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- He died in April of 1954. Cake (talk) 21:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Is there a date for this please? I may be able to find more on newspapers.com. I don't think he is notable, but there may be more about the family, etc.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Pardon me, been off with other things. See this from the Zanesville newspaper. Cake (talk) 21:15, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:46, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
1923 Mich-Vandy
I recently obtained access to online Detroit Free Press archives. Thought you'd enjoy these clippings regarding the 1923 Michigan-Vanderbilt game: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. Cbl62 (talk) 04:07, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for finding these. I most relish Vandy's one, paltry completed pass to Bomar was one-handed – tossing those fat balls seems hard enough. Vandy lost not only Tex Bradford unexpectedly but Tot McCullough too; some significant beef. Notice with the weights 156 was small but perfectly reasonable for a back; and Walter Camp some 50 years before was considered small at 156. An interesting note of my recent research. Cake (talk) 04:18, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Breaking links
Cake, this edit [5] broke the wiki link. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:55, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- It just had not "taken" yet. I am fixing the Virginia Tech articles to have the proper historical names. See Virginia Tech for how they were "VAMC" and "VPI", and the HokieBird page on their changing nicknames. Cake (talk) 23:58, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Virginia Tech Years
Great Job renaming all the seasons! However, I think that as of right now, 1909 VPI Fighting Gobblers football team through 1911 should be called "VPI football team". We may have used "Gobblers" in print in 1909, but definitely not Fighting Gobblers yet. That usage came after Gobblers. I suggest using Gobblers starting 1912. I know 1909 has references saying this was the first year that Gobblers was used, but one of the references listed states this regarding the nickname: "Techmen - Applied to students and athletic teams. Became popular after it was used in the first line of "Tech Triumph," a fight song composed in 1919: "Techmen, we're Techmen, with spirit true and faithful." Techs (Polytechnics) - Applied to athletic teams after "Polytechnic Institute" was added to VAMC name; usage dropped after adoption of "Gobbler" nickname in 1912.
I think there is still too much uncertainty about it starting in 1909 to use it. Thoughts? Jwalte04 (talk) 22:54, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- Possibly so and I would defer to you on further refinement. Most stories of this kind have multiple streams with one deemed 'official', and it seemed 1909 was official. However, my leaving a few with the "fighting" shows my bit of ambivalence. So, in short, by all means. It seems many alive today remember a time when everybody called it VPI or the Gobblers. Cake (talk) 01:46, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Please check the category edits you're making on this article. I do not see the duplication of categories you claim in your edit summary. Thanks, BMK (talk) 07:41, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
CFB team season articles
Hi MisterCake. Thank you for creating so many CFB historical teams' season articles. I have noticed that many of them contain incomplete categorization, specifically that "Category:TEAM football seasons" is not listed. Please check this before moving onto the next article, as I have been going back and trying to clean up some of your creations lately. Thank you in advance. Jrcla2 (talk) 17:03, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I was lazy with both schedules and categories for better focus on the broad aspect. I am glad someone else is interested. Teams such as the Quantico Marines were long needed. Cake (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
December 2015
Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to vandalize Wikipedia, as you did at Arkansas Razorbacks football, 1990–99, you may be blocked from editing. Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ (talk) 20:40, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
1913-1914 NC State
I have pictures from that season as my grandfather was the center/captain. Is there a way I can submit them to you? Captain Hunter (talk) 23:01, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- That's quite neat. I suppose one could email them to me. You can also upload them on wikipedia by choosing a file name (e. g. File:1913NCState.jpg) or, as such would be in the public domain, you can upload it directly to Wikimedia commons (see the 'upload file' to the left). Cake (talk) 23:08, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Tichenor
To clarify, was he better known as "RT", or as "WRT" ? DS (talk) 23:33, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
- He's never simply "Walker Tichenor." The W is usually an initial if there. See here for example. It seems he was dubbed "Reynolds" or "Tick". Cake (talk) 01:37, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Coaches of Florida Gators women's track & field team
FYI, Cake: [6]. If you're curious about the history and sourcing, there are also some template talk page notes. If you have time to search the Tower yearbooks from the early 1980s, you may be able to help resolve the start and end dates for Carol Thomson Slowik and Lyle Knudson's tenures as head coach. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Just a reminder
Please include the <include> and </noinclude> parameters when placing categories for navboxes. I imagine it was a simple little oversight. But articles such as Cliff Speegle appeared in categories such as Category:NCAA Division I FBS by conference navigational boxes. Thanks.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 00:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Merry Christmas, Cake
And may your holidays be merry and bright . . . . Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:22, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Ah...sometimes feels like I was supposed to be born in the 19th century. If only I were made to sing. Merry Christmas to yours too. I recommend the name dirt lawyer if anyone gets a terrier puppy. Cake (talk) 19:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Keeping in mind, of course, that I was raised by German shepherds . . . citius altius fortius intelligentius Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:47, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- Brilliant dogs. They know, but do not tell. However, dirt lawyer would be no good. Couldn't resist something German for a name if I had one. For a happy Christmas, something Russian is obligatory too. Cake (talk) 16:22, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Cake, you are a man of varied and surprising tastes! Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:33, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Brilliant dogs. They know, but do not tell. However, dirt lawyer would be no good. Couldn't resist something German for a name if I had one. For a happy Christmas, something Russian is obligatory too. Cake (talk) 16:22, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Keeping in mind, of course, that I was raised by German shepherds . . . citius altius fortius intelligentius Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:47, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Cake, those conference champ navboxes should be placed after the team navboxes. See my edit at 1978 Michigan Wolverines football team. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 03:27, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- OK. I was ambivalent and figured for the most part one wanted the navbox to the other team seasons on the bottom, since some were made to stay open. Oops. Cake (talk) 03:31, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
John Tigert & Grantland Rice
Cake, were Tigert and Rice friends? Did they have any sort of a post-graduation relationship? Do you have a reliable source for it? The Tigert article is a Good Article, everything in it is reliably sourced in the footnotes, and I'm getting ready to start doing the research to upgrade it to a Feature Article in the first half of 2016. If Tigert and Rice had and/or maintained a relationship after graduation that deserves elaboration; if they were casual acquaintances who just "overlapped" during their time as Vandy undergraduates, then that's just trivia. Please let me know what you have found. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:32, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- Tom McEwen quotes this from Charlie Bachman in 1929: "The trip to Harvard was a great memory for me...I recall we were changing trains in New York City in Grand Central Station, and were picking up Dr. Tigert and his friend, Grantland Rice, the great sportswriter who went to Vanderbilt with Dr. Tigert...newsboys were racing around with five-inch headlines declaring: 'Market Falls'." Cake (talk) 05:41, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hmm. Worth exploring. I just ordered a copy of George Osborne's 1974 biography of Tigert; we'll see if he has anything to say about Tigert and Rice. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:03, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- Who was Osborne? Both were such patriarchs of the sport in the region it would not surprise me, and it seemed worth noting given the above; however the difference in years (Rice class of '01, Tigert class of '03) led to the tempered note about their time at Vandy overlapping. Let me know if you wish for more on his Vandy football career. I also found the Webb School connection interesting given Lynn Bomar. Pardon my inability to make the embedded infobox work in a more attractive manner like it does for Phil Connell. PS Did Tigert play at 6 feet 3 inches? If so, that is a massive back. Cake (talk) 06:12, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hmm. Worth exploring. I just ordered a copy of George Osborne's 1974 biography of Tigert; we'll see if he has anything to say about Tigert and Rice. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:03, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
All-Southern Conference teams
I have begun creating some articles about the All-Southern Conference football teams in the years leading up to the formation of the ACC. See 1949, 1950, 1951, and 1952 All-Southern Conference football team. Any input you may have is welcome. Cbl62 (talk) 04:11, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- There is certainly a declining significance to the conference in the "post-SEC" era. Wallace Wade's Duke teams were legitimate powers. Nothing significant about 1975 Richmond on a national stage. I think cutting it off at some point before the 1960s is a wise choice. I was not certain on when, but 1953 works well enough. Also, I will note in Fuzzy Woodruff's A History of Southern Football (yet to get my hand on a copy - it comes in three volumes, so I cannot say if he has some explanatory note) the list of All-Southern teams starts in 1902. This does seem to mark some point of transition between power in the South Atlantic and power in the Deep South (and Tennessee, south-and-west-but-not-east of the Appalachians really) and could be relevant to further expansion of "ACC" history and the like. Cake (talk) 11:31, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
- I stopped the All-Southern Conference teams at 1952, because all the best schools (Clemson, Duke, Maryland, North Carolina NC State, South Carolina, Wake Forest) left after that year to form the ACC in 1953. After 1952, Southern Conference definitely seems to have been a lower tier conference. Cbl62 (talk) 20:05, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
Update on Pop Warner
Hey, just wanted to FYI you that my article update is gonna get done later than I thought, I could not find two books and I am waiting for them on interlibrary loan. One book that Im hoping to get my hands on is "The life story of Glenn S. Pop Warner : gridiron's greatest strategist" by Francis Powers. As you can tell it is very enticing Rybkovich (talk) 19:20, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- Cool. If you search the authors name (usually with middle initial J.) he is a respected biographer of Stagg. What have you found? Cake (talk) 11:04, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- I found a cool podcast re him and carlisle. Do you ever listen to radiolab? http://www.radiolab.org/story/football/ Rybkovich (talk) 16:18, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't; I'll check it out. Tom Benjey has a good blog dedicated to Warner at Carlisle. Cake (talk) 04:20, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Takes a while to get going. Gotta love the stories about Isaac Seneca and hearing Albert Exendine's voice. My Southern blood wishes to point out Heisman and not Warner invented the hidden ball trick. I know the story about Harvard painting the balls crimson for Pop thanks to those cartoons on the back of old trading cards. Cake (talk) 04:37, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hey, how where you able to edit my sand box? I am really surprised that another editor could do that. Is there a way for one to separate a sandbox into two separate articles? Rybkovich (talk) 02:32, 1 January 2016 (UTC)'
- I just hit the edit tab like with any other page. Pardon if I was invading your space! Cake (talk) 04:07, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- Strange, when I go to your page and hit edit your sandbox does not come up, same with everyone else that I tried. I logged out and went to my page as a visitor and sandbox did not come up. Are you an administrator, some one with higher power :)? Yeah you editing it first feels strange, I thought there actually was some privacy here :) Second with me I would forget what is what and delete my last version of the sandbox and paste my own saved copy. Is custom here to edit each other's sanboxes? How do you use your sandbox? Rybkovich (talk) 17:42, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- No, no higher power. I do apologize and by all means revert my edits getting in your way. Personally, I mostly use my sandbox when I have an article in mind but not enough sources yet to warrant an article, and to list such. Say, here. Cake (talk) 18:04, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- No probs at all. Ill definitely revert back to your edits when I begin working on warner again. I was only able to get into your sandbox by ending your address with /sandbox is that how you did it? And do people often edit each others sandboxes? Only asking because I am curious and want to learn how its all done here. Are you watching any games today? Did you set your monitor to black and white?:) I may watch Iowa v. Stanford today just to root against stanford. Also the basketball season starts today so I will go to the game to see cal play against colorado. Rybkovich (talk) 18:54, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- I honestly do not remember but that probably is how. Sometimes userpages will be used preemptively like you are doing with Warner; and with multiple editors, say by posting it on a project's page. Probably not often, no. Watching my Gators without a quarterback get hammered by Michigan. I too would rather Iowa, for they are Cubs fans out there. Basketball is the most fun and least deadly to play, but I know less about the history, or what makes one rather run a pick-and-roll here and the Princeton offense there, and so have less as a fan to gripe about. Cake (talk) 20:58, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- No probs at all. Ill definitely revert back to your edits when I begin working on warner again. I was only able to get into your sandbox by ending your address with /sandbox is that how you did it? And do people often edit each others sandboxes? Only asking because I am curious and want to learn how its all done here. Are you watching any games today? Did you set your monitor to black and white?:) I may watch Iowa v. Stanford today just to root against stanford. Also the basketball season starts today so I will go to the game to see cal play against colorado. Rybkovich (talk) 18:54, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- No, no higher power. I do apologize and by all means revert my edits getting in your way. Personally, I mostly use my sandbox when I have an article in mind but not enough sources yet to warrant an article, and to list such. Say, here. Cake (talk) 18:04, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- Strange, when I go to your page and hit edit your sandbox does not come up, same with everyone else that I tried. I logged out and went to my page as a visitor and sandbox did not come up. Are you an administrator, some one with higher power :)? Yeah you editing it first feels strange, I thought there actually was some privacy here :) Second with me I would forget what is what and delete my last version of the sandbox and paste my own saved copy. Is custom here to edit each other's sanboxes? How do you use your sandbox? Rybkovich (talk) 17:42, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- I just hit the edit tab like with any other page. Pardon if I was invading your space! Cake (talk) 04:07, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- Hey, how where you able to edit my sand box? I am really surprised that another editor could do that. Is there a way for one to separate a sandbox into two separate articles? Rybkovich (talk) 02:32, 1 January 2016 (UTC)'
- I found a cool podcast re him and carlisle. Do you ever listen to radiolab? http://www.radiolab.org/story/football/ Rybkovich (talk) 16:18, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
I can pretty much watch anything sports wise, even if i don't really know too much - cricket for example. Formula 1 is hard, nothing really changes and too much advantage for the teams on top (as opposed to IndyCar where the teams have pretty much the same equipment). With elite soccer teams in Europe there is at least style and strategy that come along with total domination which I don't understand in Formula 1. Ill make a sandbox 2 page and will put the Warner in there for us + anyone else to work on. Rybkovich (talk) 22:35, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- Like florida, Iowa is getting crushed. Lots of complete destruction games this year. Wasn't paying as much attention last year. Is that usual? Rybkovich (talk) 22:43, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- Some will say teams take bowl games off, as they become more meaningless with playoffs and championship games and the like - especially for those teams which had greater aspirations. Going to be interesting to see Stanford complain inevitably about being left out. Cake (talk) 02:05, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
I moved our Warner edits to sandbox2 so feel free to work on it. I'm waiting on two books - the Francis J. Powers "The life story of Glenn S. Pop Warner : gridiron's greatest strategist" and "Pop Warner : a life on the gridiron." by Jeff Miller, it just came out. Rybkovich (talk) 02:29, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
- I just realized that my Warner stuff is in Sandbox and I put my Cal football edits in Sandbox2. Rybkovich (talk) 20:35, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
- Eh it's fine. I wish not to touch it after messing up the first time. Only wished it not be forgotten that Pop was Richard Von Albade Gammon's coach. Cake (talk) 20:50, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Cake, I have gone ahead an opened up a CfD for those seven all-time team navboxes here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 22:46, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- Did my best to spit/tap out the reasons for the difference between their times of creation. Cake (talk) 23:47, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
Early history of American football - FA candidate
Just as a heads up, I nominated Early history of American football to become at featured article at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Early history of American football/archive1. ParkH.Davis (talk) 00:19, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
- Hope I haven't added too much college football. If so, it was due to the history of american football page having a lot more than college football's history section. Cake (talk) 02:08, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
FSU, 47-75
Hiya, why this redirect? The page you've redirected does not (and should not) have nearly the information that existed on that page, which seems to follow WP:NSEASONS pretty much, specifically the fifth bullet point. A pretty easy argument could be made for the elite program point as well, my obvious bias notwithstanding, haha. (I'm pretty inactive here, so I'd appreciate a talkback template) Nolelover Talk·Contribs 11:37, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Nolelover: Hi there. See here. The information was not simply deleted, but moved to single season articles, e. g. 1950 Florida State Seminoles football team. Once done, we've decided the most natural redirect for the former article is to the team article, for it was a subset. We are attempting to do the same to similar programs with omnibus articles, such as Texas Tech. Cake (talk) 22:24, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
- Ahh, gotcha. I must have had a odd caching error or something, because the links to individual season pages still showed up as redirects in the main FSU template when I looked. Thanks for pointing me to that discussion! Nice to see that that whole issue is being tackled. Nolelover Talk·Contribs 03:40, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
Gators women's track and field coaches
Cake, I just saw that you created an article for coach Carol Thomson. Among the remaining red links in the Gators track coach navbox, Tom Jones and Lyle Knudsen are both notable as track coaches and there are good reliable sources available on the net, and Lacey O'Neal was a member of the U.S. Olympic team (twice, if I remember correctly). Add them to your to-do list if you're interested. The three others who preceded O'Neal appeared to be pretty iffy on the notability scale. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:25, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
- I did. On Gators, I've also recently made Ray Parmely, Carlos Proctor, and Spurgeon Cherry. I will try and look into those names in future. Wish I was able to find more about Thomson's other coaching stints. Cake (talk) 02:24, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
| Hello, MisterCake. This is a courtesy notice that the copy edit you requested for Jess Neely at the Guild of Copy Editors requests page is now complete. All feedback welcome! Good luck and all the best, Miniapolis 16:55, 11 January 2016 (UTC) |
Thank you Miniapolis. You're the resident Alexander Pope. With the Alabama/Clemson national championship tonight, I cannot name a better guy connected to both than Neely. Cake (talk) 20:24, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
- Good timing, then :-). Thanks for the kind words and all the best, Miniapolis 02:11, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Your GA nomination of 1917 Georgia Tech Golden Tornado football team
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article 1917 Georgia Tech Golden Tornado football team you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. 
This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Mackensen -- Mackensen (talk) 17:21, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
A Barnstar for You!
|
The WikiProject Barnstar | |
| Cake; thanks for your contributions to WikiProject Georgia Tech, especially with historical GT football articles. Mistercontributer (talk) 01:01, 17 January 2016 (UTC) |
- How neat. Thanks for beating FSU this year. If only someone would shout to the AD to get Red Barron and Doug Wycoff brought up by the NFF next time they want an old-timer in the Hall. Cake (talk) 17:01, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- I thought you deserved a little recognition for all of your hard work which is much appreciated. I made sure to select a gold barn star for this recognition which seemed appropriate. Thanks again Mistercontributer (talk) 03:50, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- How neat. Thanks for beating FSU this year. If only someone would shout to the AD to get Red Barron and Doug Wycoff brought up by the NFF next time they want an old-timer in the Hall. Cake (talk) 17:01, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Your GA nomination of 1917 Georgia Tech Golden Tornado football team
The article 1917 Georgia Tech Golden Tornado football team you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold 
. The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:1917 Georgia Tech Golden Tornado football team for things which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Mackensen -- Mackensen (talk) 01:41, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Olympic swimmer Richard Howell
Hey, Cake. Do you still have a subscription to Legacy.com or other online access to the Social Security death index? I need to check on the middle name for 1924 Olympic swimmer Dick Howell, whose full name may have been either Richard Elm Howell or Richard John Howell. Sports-Reference.com says his middle "John," but I have been contacted by living family members who are adamant that it was "Elm." My confidence in the accuracy of Sports-Reference.com for such details has been somewhat rattled over the past year as I have found numerous errors and the SR folks have failed to even respond to requests for verified corrections. Supposedly SR Olympic athlete profiles are sourced to International Olympic Committee records, but who really knows -- and it is possible that whatever paperwork was submitted by the USOC to the IOC in 1924 was inaccurate. If you can find the birth and death records for Howell, please confirm his full name, DOB, POB, DOD and POD. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 07:20, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I usually use ancestry and, if possible, familysearch since it's open access. His passport application clearly says "Richard John Howell". Here is a Richard Elm Howell. Junior is here. I recently had to purge the SR references from the 1917 GT article - they pretend the doubleheader happened on different days. Here is an obituary mentioning "Elm" in the Chicago Tribune. Cake (talk) 08:33, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- From the birth record and passport application, it appears our swimmer's middle name was "John," but his son's middle name was "Elm" from his birth record. Richard the son is listed as Richard Elm Howell at least twice, and a "Jr." at least once. Obviously, he was technically not a "Jr." if his middle name was different from his father's. Thanks for the quick check. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 09:00, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I see. Yes, it seems one doesn't need the same middle name to get called "Junior," a la John Quincy Adams, which can lead to problems like the above. In my own ancestry I've a fellow called James Ransom Jr (he married Nathaniel Macon's mom after his dad died, hence the connection of his family to the likes of Matt Whitaker Ransom) whose father wasn't a James; there was just another, older James Ransom in town, and people didn't want to confuse them. PS I tried to figure out Kline for you on his talk page. Cake (talk) 10:04, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- From the birth record and passport application, it appears our swimmer's middle name was "John," but his son's middle name was "Elm" from his birth record. Richard the son is listed as Richard Elm Howell at least twice, and a "Jr." at least once. Obviously, he was technically not a "Jr." if his middle name was different from his father's. Thanks for the quick check. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 09:00, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Pre-1896 LSU football teams
1896 was the first season that LSU used the "Tigers" moniker. So, should the 1893-95 teams be named "LSU Tigers," and not just "1893 LSU football team," etc. Or do we retroactively refer to teams by their current moniker if they didn't have one for a certain time period? Lizard (talk) 02:36, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- For consistency's sake as well as fear of anachronism, they should probably be e. g. "1893 LSU football team". Compare say 1893 Stanford football team. Cake (talk) 04:11, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Question
Just a basic question. When precicely did the NCAA split into two divisions "University" and "College" for football? Also, was 1955 in fact the first season for NAIA football or was it the same time as the first NAIB tournament? I cannot seem to find direct answers on that question. Thanks. I ask because I think there should be something done according to some of the "year college football season" articles now that an unsung editor has created many of the NAIA articles.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 06:49, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
- Not sure. I know little of the NAIA, and I try to research earlier NCAA history. That said, it seemed to be in the 1950s, and the List of NCAA Division I men's basketball season scoring leaders (though the source's link is dead) says it started in 1956. Cake (talk) 14:00, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'd like to take this opportunity to brag about how dominant Pete Maravich was. On that list of season scoring leaders, sort the official season records by descending "PPG." Nothing more needs to be said. Lizard (talk) 21:04, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, and without a 3-point shot. I cannot ramble on about basketball nearly as much as football, but would have a hell of an easier time trying to make guard on your basketball team than I would being placed at any football position. As such, Pete is probably my favorite to come out of LSU. That wrist pass was deadly. Cake (talk) 21:11, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
1950 Florida Field night game photo
thumbnail|right|The Tampa Bay Rays think this would be poor attendance Are we sure that the photo on the right is actually a photo of the first night game at Florida Field? There are less than a dozen people in the stands, nobody (or almost nobody) on the left sideline, and it looks like a coach or two is/are actually standing on the field of play on the right. I know what the source says, but it looks like it might be a photo of a night practice, perhaps to get the team acclimated to playing under the lights. Maybe we can look up attendance numbers for that 1950 game against the Citadel? It stands to reason that if the Gators drew such an awful crowd for the season opener, they wouldn't have scheduled more night games any time soon. I'm swamped (pardon the fun) with work right now or I'd do the research myself.
Anyway, thanks, keep up the good work... Zeng8r (talk) 17:37, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
- I actually figured it was a 1930s game when I added the photo. A practice would make sense. Will take a look to see what possible information is out there. If one could make out a white football, that would signal it was probably a night practice before the 50s. Another possibility is it's a varsity v. freshmen game or something. Cake (talk) 17:42, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
- There was an estimated record crowd for an opening day of 25,000. However, they had at least two night workouts in full pads before the game. Cake (talk) 18:35, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Platoon system (American football)
I notice a lot of links to one-platoon system that don't really have much to do with players playing on both sides of the ball. How about we change the article to platoon system (American football) or something and then discuss the various systems (one, two, three platoons, etc.)? And then I think we should merge platooning quarterbacks into it. Lizard (talk) 20:56, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
- I would not move the entire article, but there should at least be an article for the two-platoon system. Cake (talk) 21:02, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have moved much of it to platoon system. If one could stuff the bit about platooning quarterbacks in there, things would be much improved. Cake (talk) 21:18, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
On the roster table for 1958 LSU Tigers football team, is there any way we could reflect the platoon a player played in with different cell colors? i.e. gold cells for players on the Go team, white for White team and Purple for the Bandits. I think coloring the entire row would be a little too much. Maybe just the background of the cells containing their jersey number. Lizard (talk) 03:02, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- That'll do, thanks. It's better than the mess that was there before. Lizard (talk) 04:06, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- No problem. Where is Ed Cassidy? Cake (talk) 04:11, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- The drummer for Spirit? Probably still trying to get royalties for Stairway to Heaven. Lizard (talk) 04:19, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- Taurus is a fun song. Double lols for John Locke on the keyboards. Cassidy was put as the name of a member of the 'Bandits, but it was not on the roster. Cake (talk) 04:23, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- The drummer for Spirit? Probably still trying to get royalties for Stairway to Heaven. Lizard (talk) 04:19, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- No problem. Where is Ed Cassidy? Cake (talk) 04:11, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- I'm still laughing at the mental image of John Locke being a keyboardist in a psychedelic rock band. Thanks for that. Lizard (talk) 23:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
LSU or Louisiana State
I notice you put "Louisiana State" in player infoboxes, etc. I think for uniformity (LSU Tigers football) we should put "LSU" when referring to the school. What do you think? Lizard (talk) 18:01, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
- BTW, if you're going to use "LSU" throughout the text, the abbreviation should be introduced as a parenthetical on first use of the full, unabbreviated phrase, e.g., "Louisiana State University (LSU)". That way, your readers know what the heck "LSU" is. Never assume your readers understand the abbreviation. In the college career section (if not the lead), you should also clearly distinguish between the university and the specific team for which the subject athlete played; e.g., "Cannon attended Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge, where he played for coach Paul Dietzel's LSU Tigers football team from 1956 to 1959." Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:30, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yeh I noticed that. I ran into the problem of "team vs. university" last night when filling out the All-American section on LSU Tigers football, the "Years at LSU" column. I'm not sure what the intention was but I just assumed it meant years attending the university. And there wasn't much to go off of because many of the years that were already listed for players were just flat-out wrong or out-dated. Lizard (talk) 19:41, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
- For something like "Years at LSU" in the list of LSU All-Americans, I assume it refers to the football seasons (e.g., 1956–1959), not academic/calendar years (1956–1960, or 1956–57 through 1959–60), since the academic year straddles two calendar years. In order to keep the dates of play and attendance straight, I usually write something like the following in the college sports career section:
- Yeh I noticed that. I ran into the problem of "team vs. university" last night when filling out the All-American section on LSU Tigers football, the "Years at LSU" column. I'm not sure what the intention was but I just assumed it meant years attending the university. And there wasn't much to go off of because many of the years that were already listed for players were just flat-out wrong or out-dated. Lizard (talk) 19:41, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
- "Cannon received an athletic scholarship to attend Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge, where he played for coach Paul Dietzel's LSU Tigers football team from 1956 to 1959. . . . He graduated from LSU with a bachelor's degree in physical education in 1960."
- Obviously, you can squeeze a lot of CFB history, as well as individual honors and highlights, in between those two sentences, but they frame the subject's college sports career and clarify the relationship between the subject student-athlete, the university and the LSU football team for readers who may not be knowledgeable fans of American college sports. There's no perfect formula, and you may effectively say the same thing a lot of different ways, but I'm sure you get the general idea. I might also note for guys like Cannon who played college sports from 1948 to 1970, freshmen were not allowed to play for the varsity, so you may also have to distinguish their freshman year from their three seasons of varsity eligibility. The same freshman eligibility rule was in place during the 1930s, but was waived/lifted during World War II and its immediate aftermath, so there was a window of five or six years during the 1940s when freshmen were eligible to play on the varsity -- which kinda sorta made sense when you realize that some of those "freshmen" were former Marines, paratroopers, combat infantry and other veterans. Florida had one returning vet turned lineman who was a former B-24 pilot. Strange times. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:45, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
It's probably pretty haphazard how I do that. Like Auburn and Alabama Polytechnic, it seems like it depends on the era for which is favored. I can understand the need for consistency though. As per freshmen, I myself have wondered what to do about e. g. the 1922 Florida Gators freshmen team, which won the south for freshmen teams, for example beating Doug Wycoff of Georgia Tech, and whether to add their mention to the article on the varsity team. Cake (talk) 06:22, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- Most college teams, including the Gators, don't even provide a public win-loss record of their pre-1970 freshman teams (when they existed) in their media guides. I suppose they thought of them more like scrimmages than real games, mostly as practice for the "omelet squad". No harm in a one-sentence mention if you have a reliable third-party source; otherwise, I would skip it. My larger point is that we should (a) distinguish between the university the subject student-athlete attended, and the team for which the subject played, (b) clarify the relationships by and among the student-athlete, team and university, and (c) clarify the timeline of attendance, varsity play, and graduation. And, yes, if the subject graduated with a bachelor's degree, I always mention it. I also usually include the head coach's name if the head coach is historically noteworthy. If the player is notable enough to have a stand-alone article, he will usually have a handful of memorable career plays that can be cited to contemporary newspaper accounts. Add any all-conference or All-American honors, and you have a nice, tight little college career summary, all of which should be sourced in the footnotes. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:04, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- And those sources should never be Twitter. I whacked a couple of those on Odell Beckham, Jr. last night. Lizard (talk) 17:27, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Infobox photo orientation
Cake, infobox photos like this [7] need to be cropped to roughly square portraits or horizontals that emphasize the subject's face for recognition. Using strong vertical action shots, or unnecessary long/vertical portrait photos, distorts the infobox and stretches it down the page, often forcing the text information with the box below the first view within a PC screen. Please let me know if you need help using Photoshop or other editor to re-crop such photos. After re-cropping the new square/horizontal version should be uploaded and replace the strong vertical. Strong vertical action shots should be moved from the infobox to the main body text. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:31, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- If one just wants a simple crop like in MS Paint, of course I can do that. If it does require photoshop, it has been years since I've been hip enough to use that program, and I would probably ask for some help. On the subject, do you know of another version of the picture used in Tigert's infobox? It is a great photo and looks fine while reading the article, but at full size whatever distortion happened on his face is enough to drive a migraineur crazy. Cake (talk) 19:36, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, Cake, I think MS Paint is more than adequate for cropping the photo by simple horizontal and vertical cuts of the existing image. Photoshop is probably overkill for simple cropping jobs. Ideally, we would have a head-and-shoulders portrait photo for every subject's infobox, not waist-up or full-body shots. Like I said, though, good, strong verticals can and should be used in the main body text, and I've seen you add several entirely appropriate verticals to other Gators articles. One of my goals for the new year is to appropriately crop all infobox photos for our Gators bios, as needed. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:38, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- I'm stuck on what to do with e. g. Harris Cope. Cake (talk) 00:36, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
The Vel Heckman photo-swap looks good. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:20, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
- Unsure about its status, but seen the photo in many books. Vel sure is an odd name. I hope his friends call him Or. Cake (talk) 01:06, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
- Must be fate. I just ran into Heckman's name while looking at the Times-Picayune summary of the 1958 LSU-Florida game. Coming into the game Florida had held opponents to 65 yards rushing per game, and LSU had rushed for a 220 yard per game average. Good ol' SEC football. Lizard (talk) 03:05, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Your GA nomination of 1917 Georgia Tech Golden Tornado football team
The article 1917 Georgia Tech Golden Tornado football team you nominated as a good article has passed 
; see Talk:1917 Georgia Tech Golden Tornado football team for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Mackensen -- Mackensen (talk) 05:21, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
| This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |