User talk:David Tornheim/Archive 8

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Centering prayer edit

Dear David, I'm Asli Theobald, a practitioner of Centering Prayer for many years who has diligently looked under every stone for the correct way to practice the technique. I've transcended thought countless times by repeating my sacred word exactly as I've outlined, experiencing the state described by the word "metanoia" in the Bible which means going beyond thought or transcending thought, further explained by Psalm 46:10. As I'm trying to pull all of my references together, I ask you to please leave my article as is for the next two days during which I promise to include all citations. Thanks a lot.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Asli Theobald (talk • contribs) 04:07, 19 June 2020(UTC)

Thank you so much for your guidelines, it's almost midnight here and I'll study them carefully tomorrow. Good night. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asli Theobald (talk • contribs) 04:41, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for studying the guidelines and for your patience. --David Tornheim (talk) 05:44, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Can you please send me the original version of your article, I may have messed up a citation, I'm SO sorry, this is the very first Wikipedia edit I've ever done!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asli Theobald (talk • contribs) 05:05, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

All versions and edits to the article can easily be found by clicking on the "version history" tab. For that article, this link should bring it up. See: Help:Page history --David Tornheim (talk) 05:51, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm a bit lost here and may need a bit more time, please feel free to re-post your original Centering Prayer article as I figure out how these articles are properly edited here in the most persuasive manner useful to all. TERRIBLY sorry again for assuming Wikipedia editing would be straight forward, thank you so much for your patience with first time editors! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asli Theobald (talk • contribs) 05:18, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I have responded here: User_talk:Asli_Theobald#Centering_prayer --David Tornheim (talk) 05:44, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Moved to User talk:Asli Theobald § Centering prayer

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Marlon Stockinger and Pia Wurtzbach breakup

https://news.abs-cbn.com/life/12/06/19/pia-wurtzbach-confirms-split-with-marlon-stockinger Here it is, I forgot to source it on my last edit — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.149.135.128 (talk) 01:04, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

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General accussations

David I just saw your edit [1] in Talk:United States involvement in regime change. While I agree that those closures were not granted, I would like to ask to avoid throwing around general accusations without evidence every time you disagree with somebody on Venezuelan articles. When you say Other than in Venezuela politics, I have never seen any editor attempt to close and halt discussion this way or I have seen other editors in the Venezuela topic area collapse discussions it is unhelpful because (1) you do not provide evidence (2) I have rarely seen User:Eons of Mollusk in other Venezuelan related subjects (3) and even if true it does not address your concern directly (EOM edits). Remember WP:TPYES and WP:TPNO, focused discussions allow for healthier environment and would avoid us deviating from the main issue. If you have larger concerns with Wikipedia or a specific community there are other channels you can address directly. Sincerely--ReyHahn (talk) 11:42, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Please note that I had not finished revising this when you posted it. I updated it to this.

Other than in Venezuela politics, I have never seen any editor attempt to close and halt discussion this way. It's true. You and some other Venezuela editors that did it in another Venezuela-related article--I can't remember which--and I reverted you for doing it once. At least one other editor was annoyed by this behavior too. I don't know where you got the idea it is okay. If you would like me to find it, I can. I take it you don't remember?

I was not suggesting EOM is an editor who is devoted almost exclusively to Venezuelan politics, like some editors are. I'm fairly confident that is not the case. I have even discussed other non-Venezuelan subjects with EOM at the same article.

I can't easily prove I have never seen this on the 1000s of articles I have read. It's hard to prove something doesn't exist. If you would like to look through all the articles I have ever touched and tell me what percentage of them that this was done, I'd be curious to hear what you come up with.

Or maybe you can give me a list of places you have seen it done and no one objected. --David Tornheim (talk) 12:12, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

@Eons of Mollusk: FYI. Your name has been brought up here. --David Tornheim (talk) 12:15, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Do you agree that whatever you implied there has no relation with your concerns about EOM? You and some other Venezuela editors that did it in another Venezuela-related article where?. Anyway I was mainly raising my concerns more on point (3), if EOM is not concerned, then why making the link? Anyway this is just a recommendation, we are advised to avoid making vague accusations, especially if these accusations are not related to the main subject or to your main concerns with the article.--ReyHahn (talk) 12:46, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I will be explaining all of my edits on the US regime change talk page, however it's going to take a minute to put out. Eons of Mollusk (talk) 15:21, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

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Your thread has been archived

Hi David Tornheim! The thread you created at the Wikipedia:Teahouse, Shouldn't our math (and other highly technical) articles be accessible to non-experts?, has been archived because there was no discussion for a few days (usually at least two days, and sometimes four or more). You can still find the archived discussion here. If you have any additional questions that weren't answered then, please feel free to . The archival was done by Lowercase sigmabot III, and this notification was delivered by Muninnbot, both automated accounts. You can opt out of future notifications by placing {{bots|deny=Muninnbot}} here on your user talk page. Muninnbot (talk) 19:00, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

RPP

Please be more careful. This edit removed several other requests that need attention.--Jorm (talk) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@Jorm: Are you sure? The diff doesn't show anything being deleted. I made two edits and there was one intervening edit where someone changed their mind and removed their request. --David Tornheim (talk) 23:51, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

WHOOPS! Wrong diff. This is the correct one; it's at the bottom.--Jorm (talk) 23:54, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@Jorm:Ah. Weird--sorry about that. When I wrote it up the first time, there was an (edit conflict) when I tried to post. I copied the text, closed the edit page, told it to discard the edits, re-edited and pasted in the new request. Maybe the editor software restored some of the old version. Sorry I didn't do a diff before I posted, so I didn't notice it had affected other material.

Do you want me to clean up the mess? Or is it taken care of? --David Tornheim (talk) 00:01, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm good (I resubmitted it). I'm not chuffed about it at all, and I was myself confused about how it disappeared (as you can tell b/c I put the wrong diff in). Sometimes MediaWiki is fickle!--Jorm (talk) 00:04, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

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Motion: Genetically modified organisms (July 2020)

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

David Tornheim's topic ban from glyphosate, imposed as a discretionary sanction on 28 July 2016 and amended on 23 April 2019, is rescinded.

For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 16:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Motion: Genetically modified organisms (July 2020)

I'm glad to see this restriction lifted, good luck, and may all your edits be happy ones! All the best: Rich Farmbrough 22:46, 3 July 2020 (UTC).

Rich Farmbrough Thank you! --David Tornheim (talk) 22:58, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Your thread has been archived

Hi David Tornheim! The thread you created at the Wikipedia:Teahouse, Who can close a Split discussion?, has been archived because there was no discussion for a few days (usually at least two days, and sometimes four or more). You can still find the archived discussion here. If you have any additional questions that weren't answered then, please feel free to . The archival was done by Lowercase sigmabot III, and this notification was delivered by Muninnbot, both automated accounts. You can opt out of future notifications by placing {{bots|deny=Muninnbot}} here on your user talk page. Muninnbot (talk) 19:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Your link/permalink fail - so please delete all of it

David Tornheim - If something is not going to improve a WP article, then it does not belong on that article's talk page.
For some still unknown reason you took it upon yourself to add "link/permalink" of FactOrOpinion entire personal talk page to the "Michael Flynn talk page" and it appears you failed to do it correctly.
1) both the "link" portion are identical and are of FOO's entire personal talk page in 'real time' - meaning, any and all comments and activity that takes place on FOO's personal talk page now, and in the future, goes straight to the "Michael Flynn talk page" which not the objective of a permalink and is a disruption to the MF talk page, and in no way helps improve the article- So I am requesting that you delete both links.
2) both the "permalinks" are identical and are of FOO's entire personal talk page which is not the objective of permalinking a section (which is what you claimed you wanted to do for some still unknown reason) Because your permalink is of FOO's entire talk page, it is a disruption to the MF talk page, and in no way helps improve the article- So I am requesting that you delete both permalinks.
3) for some puzzling reason, in both permalinks, you also included your questionable admonishment that obviously has nothing to do with Michael Flynn -hmmmm.... why did you include that? Because your questionable admonishment does not improve the MF article, I am requesting you delete both permalinks in their entirety.
4) What part of your questionable admonishment do you think helps "improve" the Michael Flynn article?
5) Since it does not, cannot, and was clearly not intended to improve the article; then why did you include that it in a permalink?
6) In your edit to add FOO's link/permalink you wrote, "It's not clear to me if it relates to this article's content"- so since you admit that you have no idea if any of it relates to the article's content or improvement then why in the world did you take it upon yourself and demand/create a permalink FOO's entire talk page and then put on MF talk page? SMH.
7) the DOJ thing: since FOO & I had already discussed it on the MF talk page way back when, I told you & FOO that I see no point in adding that in permalink and I still the same way; but apparently you, David, who admits that "It's not clear to me if it relates to this article's content" decided to include it against my objection and frankly, I find your actions on that to be inappropriate, disruptive, and a hindrance in helping to improve WP articles. Since that portion was already in the MF talk page, and the expanded version does not help improve the MF article, I am requesting you delete that portion of any future permalink.
9) You were never part of that discussion on FOO's talk page, so is this something you do a lot? Do you hop around to people's talk pages and just demand they permalink stuff even when "It's not clear to [you] if it relates to this article's content" SMH.
Finally and I feel this important: if for some unknown reason you feel you need to permalink sections of FOO's talk page, then the ONUS is on you to sift through the sections and only included portions that will help improve the article. And until you do those things, I am requesting that you delete both link/permalinks in their entirety because as they are right now, their existence on the MF talk page do not improve the article at all. BetsyRMadison (talk) 15:55, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

David Tornheim - I'm not asking you to delete all of it (I'm OK either way, as long as you're only directing people to the two relevant sections of my user talk page), but Betsy is correct that the permalinks you introduced on the Flynn talk page [2] include all of my talk page at that time, not just the two relevant sections. I'm pretty sure that my attempted permalinks [3] work properly, if you'd like to swap them out. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 21:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

TO David Tornheim & FactOrOpinion - I object to putting them on Michael Flynn's talk page at all, but especially in the shape they are in right now. They do not help improve the article so do not belong on the talk page. And the permalink that FOO is talking about, is of her entire talk page - but - if you click on the "link" David has to the left of the permalink you get FOO's entire talk page in real time, meaning, any and all comments and activity that takes place on FOO's personal talk page now, and in the future, goes straight to the "Michael Flynn talk page" which is disruptive to the MF talk page, and in no way helps improve the article

Since you two seem bent on including them for some unknown reason, I would like to review any portion of the sections after David or FOO or both of you sift through the material in order to discard TLDR, OR, FORUM etc., Honestly this entire discussion and episode feels very bizarre, unhelpful to the MF article, and very disruptive, it sure would be nice if one of you could explain the point of all this nonsense & how it will improve the article Respectfully, BetsyRMadison (talk) 22:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

TO David Tornheim & FactOrOpinion - Well, as it turns out, I was wrong and David is correct. El_C explained to my why what David is ok with WP guidelines so I feel much better about whatever you two decide to do. I'm sorry that I freaked, but I thought adding the entire talk page on the MF talk page would violate some kind of WP guidelines like OR, FORUM etc. Hope you two understand why I was so concerned about it. I would send you two an olive branch emoji, but I don't know how to do it in this WP format. BetsyRMadison (talk) 02:36, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison:@FactOrOpinion: Glad this is all resolved.

I would send you two an olive branch emoji

Olive branch accepted. For more emoji's, see: {{Emoji}}, {{Emoji/Gallery}}, WP:EMOTICON.

@BetsyRMadison: Thanks for your comments about the "engineer". This made me laugh!

I drafted a much longer response last night explaining at little about your concerns, and giving some more advice about the worries about breaking one of the myriad Wikirules. Are either of you open to that? --David Tornheim (talk) 20:54, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

@David Tornheim: - Thanks for the !! I'm not sure what you are asking us to do exactly? Do you want us to read something? As for the "engineering" thing -- it's sad to learn that wiki-rules can give rise to wiki being forced to publish fictional biographies on here ... sad indeed BetsyRMadison (talk) 21:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for remaining cordial, you two. That is good. El_C 21:32, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm indeed pleased things went in this direction. Thanks for your third-party help. Made a big difference. --David Tornheim (talk) 21:58, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

@El C: - yes, I am glad things went in this direction too and I cannot thank you enough for your help. I had a great deal of trust and respect for you before David came to you with this, and have even more trust and respect for you now. BetsyRMadison (talk) 12:41, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Good, I'm glad. Anytime, David. El_C 22:26, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

@BetsyRMadison: I'm not sure what you are asking us to do exactly? Do you want us to read something?

Yes. I had written a response explaining the confusion where you and FactOrOpinion thought those links I provided included the 'entire' talk page on the article talk page and possibly violated wiki-rules. Those links only point to a section of the talk pages. The draft response explains it in more detail. I can understand if you prefer not to discuss or think about it further, since it is basically resolved.

I also had some general advice about your and FactOrOpinion's legitimate concerns and caution about breaking rules here and some other advice as new editors. I don't want to give unwanted advice. New editors often run into challenges with our rules, and when they break them, often experienced editors are not exactly 'nice' to them. We even had an WP:RfC regarding whether editors could be sanctioned for telling other editors--including new editors--to "fuck off". I think it is one of the reasons we have so few people who stick around. I appreciate new editors like you two, who seem to be interested in sticking around and are trying hard to follow our rules. So I had some advice on how to navigate that. --David Tornheim (talk) 21:58, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I'd be happy to hear your advice (no guarantee that it will be easy for me to act on, though ;-). My concern was less about breaking a rule (because you're an experienced editor, and I trusted your judgement) than simply wanting to know if I'd correctly understood how to create the kind of permalink I thought most appropriate -- which only displayed the specific section involved, instead of displaying my entire user talk page (even though your link went to a specific section) -- and wanting to understand why the other kind of permalink I attempted to create didn't work properly. Separately, I have some concerns about the exchanges between me and Betsy, as more than once she has attributed beliefs/feelings/actions to me that aren't accurate, and that can be a bit draining / time-consuming even though I WP:AGF. Ultimately I decided not to invest more time in sorting it out, since I'd failed at that more than once. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:48, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

@David Tornheim: - I always welcome listening & learning, so yes, I'm up for reading what you've written. Regarding the link/permalink: yes, it's resolved and after EL_C's explanation I feel much better, relieved in fact. But I do have a question about the "link" part & by "link" part I mean the link that is to the left of the "permalink" part on the MF talk page. That link part is in "real time" so all future activity on the user's talk page will show up in that "link" on the MF talk page; is what you intended it to do? I'm not concerned/upset about it, I'm just curious if that's what you intended? Oh & thanks for taking the time to write up WP advice for new users. I look forward to reading it. BetsyRMadison (talk) 12:07, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Betsy, no, the permalink is a snapshot frozen in time. El_C 12:09, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

@El C: - yes, you are correct about the "permalink" but I am referring to the "link" that is to the left of the permalink part, this part here, User_talk:FactOrOpinion#Regarding_your_questions_&_comments_to_me. When I click on that link part, the user's talk page in real time shows up. It's nothing to be concerned about, I was just curious if that's what David intended it to do or if it is an oversight? BetsyRMadison (talk) 12:31, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Indeed, that link is live. El_C 12:33, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

• BetsyRMadisonFactOrOpinion Yes, it is "live", but it is a link only to the section of relevance--there is no suggestion that one look in any other section. There are advantages to using the "live" link: (1) New responses may come in after the the link is posted (2) An editor might read what is there and want to respond to it.

As an example of why a permalink is desirable: I created this section for my guidance. I put a note to myself to add a permalink, which, unfortunately I didn't do yet. Why? Now if you click on the "live" link, it doesn't work. Why? Because the section was archived. Now if I (or anyone) want to find that discussion, I have the unpleasant and often time-consuming task of having to look through the 1067 pages of the archives, or the equally voluminous version history. It would have been easy to create the permalink when it was fresh--I could have gotten the link from the top entry of the version history. Now it is buried.

Hence each link has a different advantage. Make sense? --David Tornheim (talk) 01:06, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

@David Tornheim: = Yes, it does make sense now that you've explained it. I appreciate you giving me that detailed explanation.  Thanks BetsyRMadison (talk) 21:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

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Charles Southwood

Hi Charles, thank you for the heads on Charles Southwood. To be honest, I can't even recall doing it (I recall childhood and military things from eons ago with crystal clarity but nothing more recent). I attempted to put an external link (https://westernsallitaliana.blogspot.com/2012/08/happy-75th-birthday-charles-southwood.html) but it didn't meet the Wikipedia guidelines.Foofbun (talk) 22:32, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@Foofbun: Thanks for getting back to me. I'll keep an eye on it, and maybe I'll post to another forum to see if someone more versed in his history wants to add something. He's clearly notable, but the WP:RS is so hard to track down--online at least. --David Tornheim (talk) 04:24, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks for your diligence and courtesy before these people are lost to the ages.Foofbun (talk) 04:28, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

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Heads up

Howdy! So, I mentioned you obliquely at Wikipedia talk:Banning policy, just so you know. Cheers! Jusdafax (talk) 14:03, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Jusdafax Thanks for letting me know. --David Tornheim (talk) 05:34, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

No problem. Also, welcome to WikiProject Environment. Cheers again! Jusdafax (talk) 07:14, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

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This one was deleted per [4]. --David Tornheim (talk) 12:48, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

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Kaitlyn Robrock as Minnie Mouse

How was this information sourceless? There was proof that she had voiced the character in the most recent episodes of the series to air. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:246:D00:6B00:4853:462F:438B:36DE (talk) 18:08, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

What proof? --David Tornheim (talk) 04:55, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Response re: Christopher Hollins Article

Hi David Tornheim I really do appreciate all of your help. You have been instrumental with respect to the article and a great mentor. Apologies regarding any frustration that came across. Btw, I changed my username from BostickLawChristaJwl (talk) 17:11, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

ChristaJwl Glad to be of help. Thanks for your understanding and patience. --David Tornheim (talk) 20:27, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

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ArbCom 2020 Elections voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2020 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 7 December 2020. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2020 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 01:43, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Arbitration Committee Election Question limits

On these pages:

• Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2020/Candidates/Hawkeye7/Questions#Questions_from_David_Tornheim
• Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2020/Candidates/Barkeep49/Questions#Questions_from_David_Tornheim
• Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2020/Candidates/BDD/Questions#Questions_from_David_Tornheim
• Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2020/Candidates/CaptainEek/Questions#Questions_from_David_Tornheim
• Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2020/Candidates/Maxim/Questions#Questions_from_David_Tornheim
• Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2020/Candidates/SMcCandlish/Questions#Questions_from_David_Tornheim
• Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2020/Candidates/L235/Questions#Questions_from_David_Tornheim

You have exceeded the limit of two questions (per this year's RFC). Please remove some questions until you are at, or below this limit. SQL^{Query me!} 00:30, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

@SQL: Thank you for the notice.

I have replied here:

• Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2020/Candidates/Primefac#Too_many_questions (permalink)

--David Tornheim (talk) 13:58, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

December 2020

Hi David. Thank you for sending me a message. I'm very new to Wikipedia so still figuring things out. Re your comment about my edit to the article Memories (Maroon 5 song), I was just updating the tag so that the songwriter's name (which was already in the article) would link to his page, not adding content. Let me know your thoughts and if this does warrant a source. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChanceTheWrapper (talk • contribs) 17:41, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

@ChanceTheWrapper: Sorry about that. My bad. Your edits were fine. I have restored your edits and removed the warning on your talk page. Keep up the good work! --David Tornheim (talk) 23:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

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Tecumseh Day

As someone who writes on Shawnee-related topics, you might be interested in this. Thanks! Kevin1776 (talk) 18:43, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Kevin1776 Thanks for the note! I am very interested in the topic indeed. I'm currently trying to finish Allan W. Eckert's "A Sorrow in Our Hearts" [about Tecumseh] and "That Dark and Bloody River". --David Tornheim (talk) 02:58, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

That's great. Years ago, Eckert's The Frontiersmen is what got me interested in this area of history. Do you know of any specific Shawnee-related articles you might want to work on for display on the Main Page in October? Kevin1776 (talk) 18:10, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

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