User talk:Courtlisa
Welcome![edit]
Hello, Courtlisa, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions.
I noticed that one of the first articles you edited was Booth Lusteg, which appears to be dealing with a topic with which you may have a conflict of interest. In other words, you may find it difficult to write about that topic in a neutral and objective way, because you are, work for, or represent, the subject of that article. Your recent contributions may have already been undone for this very reason.
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{Help me}} before the question. Again, welcome! — Marchjuly (talk) 23:27, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
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Try an obituary[edit]
I would imagine that an obituary published in a respected newspaper might suffice as a reliable source. But given your fathers history I fear obits might have it wrong, unless you can get the Funeral Home and paper to amend (print a correction.Oldperson (talk) 23:54, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Courtlisa. Oldperson is right in suggesting that an obituary might one way to resolve this, but it depends upon who writes the obituary. If it's something which was written by an established journalist (e.g. sportwriter) working for an established publication (e.g. a major newspaper or magazine), then there's a good chance that could be used. If, however, it was something submitted by family or friends that the newspaper simply published, then it probably is not going to be considered OK as explained here. What is needed is something that Wikipedia considers to be a reliable source. A "reliable source" doesn't need to be available online, but it needs to have been published and accessible so that it can be verified. Right now, the only reliable sources Wikipedia has to go by is the one cited in the article and the Buffalo Bills 1967 yearbook entry about your dad that I found on your website. Both of these sources give his birth year as 1939 so Wikipedia is going to need something that shows something different. Even if you can find something that Wikipedia can use, it might be the case where both years need to be given in the article to show that reliable sources disagree about your dad's birth year. Personal documents like passports and driver's licenses are considered to be primary sources by Wikipedia and these types of sources can sometimes be used, but only in certain ways and secondary sources are preferred instead. However, even primary sources need to be published and accessible for verification purposes just like any other reliable source cited in an article; so, there's no way for Wikipedia to use a source and then keep it entirely out of public view as you said you wanted to do in your latest Teahouse post.Since you've got a conflict-of-interest with respect to anything written about your dad on Wikipedia, the best way for you to try and get changes made to the article is to follow Wikipedia:Edit requests and post an edit request at Talk:Booth Lusteg. So, if you can find something like an old magazine article or newspaper article which meets Wikipedia's definition of a reliable source and give your dad's birth year as 1938, then please post that information as part of an edit request on the article's talk page. Another editor will review the request and figure out what to do. One kinda important thing to keep in mind here is that your dad did pretend to be his brother when he tried out for the Bills. Even after everyone figured out who he really was, it's possible that there was still confusion about when he was really born. Most of the sources after the Bills probably just used information they received either from your dad or from somewhere else; so, you might have more finding something giving his real birth year if you focus on stuff published before his Bills try out. As I posted in one of my Teahouse responses, There are newspaper clippings posted on your website listing your father as graduating from high school in 1955, but none of these actually mention when he was born. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:23, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Marchjuly has provided a useful link. If I understand it, you make the edit request on your fathers talk page. If you do so ping me. I will do what I can. If you know of a Reliable Source point me to it and I will check it and make the correction if the source fulfills requirements. I also need to know his actual date of birth. I'll see if Ican research this myself. There are also Federal Census, which can be searched at www.familysearch.org. If I knew your fathers fathers name and your fathers date of birth, the census just might have his month and year of birth,which may be the very best that you can hope to do. I assume that he was born before 1938, I also need to know where he was born. One searches census by county, state, year and name. I have an account (it is free). I searched, but not knowing his place of birth all I could find was this for the year 1940 you will notice that he has two findagrave records (which is not a reliable source BTW), one shows a DOB of 1938 as does his WP article and the other a DoB of 1939. There are no generic Lustegs in the1940 Census is the family emigrants after 1940 or did they change the nameOldperson (talk) 01:46, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Teahouse questions[edit]
Hi Courtlisa. Just in case you didn't know, the previous times you asked about Booth Lusteg at the Teahouse actually did receive responses from others. Teahouse questions are archived after a certain amount of time has passed since the last response was posted which means you will no longer be able to find them on the main page. Your previous questions were archived as Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1015#Wrong info in "Booth Lusteg Wikipedia" article on Google and Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1019#Booth Lusteg article so you might want to refer to them for reference. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:55, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- {Marchjuly}} Genealogical research is my hobby. Very seldom do we find solid connecting facts thus genealogists have to use deducive reasoning. I think that I have found Booth Lusteg in the 1940 Census. First I found info that he was born in New Haven Connecticut,then I checked the 1940 Census for New Haven and found a Gerald Lusteg age 2 (born 1938) in New Haven,Connecticut he was the son of Arthur G Luster and Muriel Booth Lusteg. It is rare that a census shows a middle name,much less an initial, but it was,and still is in some parts and families,to give a child as a middle name, the family name of the mother. I have seen cases where every child in the family has the same middle name (mothers maiden name), a means of passing on family history.
- Here is the link check first entry for Gerald then down the page for Arthur G Lusteg whose wife is Mrs Muriel W Booth Lusteg. This does not appear to be a coincidence. Gerald either dropped his first name in his career, for his middle name, or rather than sign up as Gerald Lusteg choose the more "masculine" and unique Booth. This could be fact that is even unknown to his family, as it could have been a name change affected before marriage and birth of children. Also a frequent occurence.Oldperson (talk) 19:30, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- I appreciate you trying sort this out Oldperson, but the best place for all involved to try and do that would be at Talk:Booth Lusteg. I also appreciate your interest/skill in doing genealogical research, but any deductive reasoning is going to be considered to be WP:NOR per WP:VNT even for experts in the field of genealogy. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:38, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Marchjuly Thanx. I understand that deduction would be OR,that is why I have mentioned this on her talk page, rather than the articles talk page. I use deduction to help me dig up the facts, unfortunately at least 60% of the time or more, one encounters inpenetrable dead ends and just have to roll with best guess, being prepared to revise and adjust which is what the deductive methodology is. Unlike inductive it doesn't declare case closed. Anyway I didn't want to muddy the waters by posting this on the talk page as it will invite dilletante's and the likes.It is in my nature to help,so I am merely trying to help Lisa and provide her a jumping off point. For instance it does appear that her fathers forename is actually Gerald. Maybe she didn't know that. I have been researching another line today and discovered that a grandmother (not mine)did not like her forename,so she started using her middle name as forename,and forename as middle initial and she died that way, her death certificate is so recorded.Oldperson (talk) 21:56, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- MarchjulyOut of pure curiosity, why is Lisa being required to dig up some RS to change her fathers date of birth,and why would someone constantly revert such a trivial thing. As I tour the thousands of biographies on WP, I see no RS for either DoB or DoD, much less place of either. So why in this case It seems irrelevant, trivial, nonsensical and a solid waste of time. In other words NO BFD. :)Oldperson (talk) 00:37, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call someone's date of birth a "trivial" thing, and Wikipedia doesn't either as explained in guidelines like WP:DOB (there's also WP:BDP as well). All Wikipedia content is, in principle, required to be supported by citations to reliable sources which can be verified. I'm sure that there are lots of articles where you can find dates of birth not supported directly by a citation (the information, however, may be supported by a citation somewhere else in the article per MOS:CITELEAD), but the fact that you can even find articles where such information is not supported doesn't mean that it's OK to do the same in this article. She's being asked to provide a reliable source because she wants the information which is supported by a citation to a reliable source to be changed to something else. If you or I were to change the information without providing a reliable source in support, then we could (and would likely) be reverted per WP:BURDEN by another editor, if not rather quickly then most likely some time down the road. Nobody (at least not I) is saying that what she's proposing isn't true, but Wikipedia requires a little more than just being true.It's not uncommon for a source that Wikipedia considers reliable to be incorrect; it's also not uncommon for reliable sources to be found which may even contradict each other, In such cases, both "versions" are sometimes presented to show that there is disagreement. For what it's worth, I too have been looking for information on this as well as other information on her dad that could be used to improve the article. I was able to find some old newspaper articles about him from his playing days and cite those in the article, but I haven't been able to find anything which specifically mentions that he was born in 1938. Everything I've found so far list him as being born in 1939. Any further discussion about this should, once again, really take place on the article's talk page. It's unfortunate if you feel that doing so will only attract
dilletante's and the like
, but maybe it would be helpful to at least at first assume that those participating in such a discussion are doing so for the right reasons instead of being pre-disposed that they aren't. If you want to discuss this further with me then feel free to do so on the article's talk page. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:36, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call someone's date of birth a "trivial" thing, and Wikipedia doesn't either as explained in guidelines like WP:DOB (there's also WP:BDP as well). All Wikipedia content is, in principle, required to be supported by citations to reliable sources which can be verified. I'm sure that there are lots of articles where you can find dates of birth not supported directly by a citation (the information, however, may be supported by a citation somewhere else in the article per MOS:CITELEAD), but the fact that you can even find articles where such information is not supported doesn't mean that it's OK to do the same in this article. She's being asked to provide a reliable source because she wants the information which is supported by a citation to a reliable source to be changed to something else. If you or I were to change the information without providing a reliable source in support, then we could (and would likely) be reverted per WP:BURDEN by another editor, if not rather quickly then most likely some time down the road. Nobody (at least not I) is saying that what she's proposing isn't true, but Wikipedia requires a little more than just being true.It's not uncommon for a source that Wikipedia considers reliable to be incorrect; it's also not uncommon for reliable sources to be found which may even contradict each other, In such cases, both "versions" are sometimes presented to show that there is disagreement. For what it's worth, I too have been looking for information on this as well as other information on her dad that could be used to improve the article. I was able to find some old newspaper articles about him from his playing days and cite those in the article, but I haven't been able to find anything which specifically mentions that he was born in 1938. Everything I've found so far list him as being born in 1939. Any further discussion about this should, once again, really take place on the article's talk page. It's unfortunate if you feel that doing so will only attract
- MarchjulyOut of pure curiosity, why is Lisa being required to dig up some RS to change her fathers date of birth,and why would someone constantly revert such a trivial thing. As I tour the thousands of biographies on WP, I see no RS for either DoB or DoD, much less place of either. So why in this case It seems irrelevant, trivial, nonsensical and a solid waste of time. In other words NO BFD. :)Oldperson (talk) 00:37, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- Marchjuly Thanx. I understand that deduction would be OR,that is why I have mentioned this on her talk page, rather than the articles talk page. I use deduction to help me dig up the facts, unfortunately at least 60% of the time or more, one encounters inpenetrable dead ends and just have to roll with best guess, being prepared to revise and adjust which is what the deductive methodology is. Unlike inductive it doesn't declare case closed. Anyway I didn't want to muddy the waters by posting this on the talk page as it will invite dilletante's and the likes.It is in my nature to help,so I am merely trying to help Lisa and provide her a jumping off point. For instance it does appear that her fathers forename is actually Gerald. Maybe she didn't know that. I have been researching another line today and discovered that a grandmother (not mine)did not like her forename,so she started using her middle name as forename,and forename as middle initial and she died that way, her death certificate is so recorded.Oldperson (talk) 21:56, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- I appreciate you trying sort this out Oldperson, but the best place for all involved to try and do that would be at Talk:Booth Lusteg. I also appreciate your interest/skill in doing genealogical research, but any deductive reasoning is going to be considered to be WP:NOR per WP:VNT even for experts in the field of genealogy. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:38, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
One Source Provided[edit]
Dear Marchjuky,
A correction in the Booth Lusteg article, See boothlustegtribute.com, on the "News Clips" tab. In here will be a news article of Booth and the Portland Storm (WFL) with the date reading 1974
Courtlisa Courtlisa (talk) 19:51, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Please try to follow WP:COIADVICE and WP:PSCOI#Steps for engagement with respect to the article about your dad. I'm sure you meant well, but it's better for you (except in some very specific cases) to propose changes/improvements on the article talk page to give others unconnected to the subject matter a chance to look them over. You should also not really mark your edits as minor edits, particularly since you do have a COI with respect to the article, except for some very simple cleanup, such as typo/grammar error perhaps.
As for your recent edits, the article cited as a source for the probably with the Bill's fans in 1966 implies that something more happened that just your dad being criticized; it actually uses words like "attack", "beaten up", "punch ot" and even quotes your dad as saying his shirt was ripped. The word "assault" might have been too strong, but "criticized" doesn't accurately reflect the source. If the source is incorrect or their are other sources about the incident that you're aware of, please discuss on the article's talk page. I actually did try to find sources on your dad's career with the Storm, but couldn't find any so the content was removed. If you know of such sources, please also point them out on the article's talk page so that they can be assessed. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:28, 11 February 2020 (UTC)