Template:Did you know nominations/Twelve Prophets of Aleijadinho
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: rejected by Allen3 talk 13:55, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
No progress at resolving issues for over 10 days
Twelve Prophets of Aleijadinho[edit]
- ... that in order to carve his Twelve Prophets (detail of Hosea pictured), Aleijadinho had his chisel and mallet strapped to the stumps of his deformed hands?
- Comment: Article translated from pt:Doze profetas de Aleijadinho.
- Reviewed: Ich freue mich in dir, BWV 133
Created by EncycloPetey (talk), Carptrash (talk). Nominated by EncycloPetey (talk) at 23:22, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Lots of detail here, but a bit short on inline citations. None of the prophet subsections have inline cites, nor the conservation section. DYK supplementary rules asks for one cite per paragraph as a rule of thumb. I'd like to see stronger referencing before passing this. Thanks, The Interior (Talk) 02:11, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for starting the review. Unfortunately, the original article from which this was translated had no citations, and my coauthor has all the books. I've ordered one that should be able to provide cites, but it hasn't arrived yet. I'll see what I can find on-line, but searching out information specifically about the appearance of each statue with an appraisal that matches the translated one could be difficult, since I'm not sure which languuage I'll find the information in... --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:21, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- The book I was waiting for arrived, but had far less text than I was hoping to find; it was more a coffee table book. I did glean some useful citations to describe postures of the statues from a Thesis linked in the article, and these have now been added. However, I could find nothing regarding conservation concerns. So, while the citations are now stronger, I do not know whether this would be "strong enough" for DYK, but I'm afraid I've run out of usable sources. There just doesn't seem to be much available in English, and my knowledge of Portuguese isn't strong enough to search for information on the web. --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:11, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Your sourcing is a big improvement, the MA thesis alleviates most of my verifiability concerns. As for the conservation section, it does contain some statements that need sources. Would commenting out this section until a source is found an acceptable solution to you? We could run it as DYK without that portion. One other note - the bit about the artist's hands. I think another sentence needs to added to give context, i.e. what happened to the poor man's hands! The Interior (Talk) 20:52, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
- I think adding another sentence to explain about the artist's leprosy would make the hook too long. Commenting out the Conservation section is fine, so long as there's an explanatory note hidden along with it, and a mention of the existence of this hdden text (and reason for hiding it) placed on the article's talk page. --EncycloPetey (talk) 21:07, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
- I meant adding another sentence in the article ;) The Interior (Talk) 21:11, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
- And though it seems a bit odd, I'd be fine if the section was returned to the article after it is no longer on the main-page, preferably with a section-level unreferenced template. The Interior (Talk) 21:16, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Unreffed para temporarily commented out, leprosy bit added to article. AGF for offline hook ref, looks to be good to go. The Interior (Talk) 22:48, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- Still looks underreferenced, and a lot of the sentences without citations seem to pass judgment (i.e. require a cite). Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- Can you suggest a solution to that problem, or does that mean the hook will not run? --EncycloPetey (talk) 16:19, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps {cn} tags can be placed at the end of sentences that need footnotes? (I just put in a few.) And the co-author who "has all the books" can help put in some footnotes? Hope this helps. --PFHLai (talk) 19:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- You did see that most of this article originates as a translation from Portuguese Wikipedia, yes? My coauthor with the books did not write much of the article; he wrote only those sections that are well-referenced and that have no counterpart in the original version. Rather, a contributor on the Portuguese Wikipedia wrote the original article, and the original had no references at all. Now, there are a few of the statements that you have tagged that I might be able to find sources for, but only the ones that pertain to biblical facts, and not the ones pertaining to the sculptures themselves (although I think one of my sources might support the statement about chronological sequence). So, the situation will not improve unless there is someone around willing to dig for references in Portuguese. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- Since this doesn't have length issues, the offending sentences could be pruned. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:27, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- The problem with that solution is that it removes all the information about what the statues look like. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- Random example: "The expression on the face of Isaiah is characteristic of the genius of Aleijadinho." --According to whom? What if I think Aleijadinho was not a genius? There is judgement inherent in that sentence that should have a citation. Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's Genius (mythology). As I see it, the problem with this sentence is that we have no source for the claim that Isaiah's face is typical of Aleijadinho's work. Nyttend (talk) 21:53, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Interesting. Referencing is indeed still needed. Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:35, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Since this doesn't have length issues, the offending sentences could be pruned. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:27, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- You did see that most of this article originates as a translation from Portuguese Wikipedia, yes? My coauthor with the books did not write much of the article; he wrote only those sections that are well-referenced and that have no counterpart in the original version. Rather, a contributor on the Portuguese Wikipedia wrote the original article, and the original had no references at all. Now, there are a few of the statements that you have tagged that I might be able to find sources for, but only the ones that pertain to biblical facts, and not the ones pertaining to the sculptures themselves (although I think one of my sources might support the statement about chronological sequence). So, the situation will not improve unless there is someone around willing to dig for references in Portuguese. --EncycloPetey (talk) 22:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps {cn} tags can be placed at the end of sentences that need footnotes? (I just put in a few.) And the co-author who "has all the books" can help put in some footnotes? Hope this helps. --PFHLai (talk) 19:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- IMO, no reference citation is needed for the locations of the individual statues within the courtyard. Their arrangement is supported by the photos here and in sources. Similarly, the descriptions of the individual statues are verifiable from the myriad photographs (here and elsewhere).
- Looking for other sources, I found information about the site's listing as a UNESCO World Heritage site -- an additional fact to report in the article. See this overview and this report, both of which could be cited as sources.
- The elements that still need sourcing are critical observations, such as "The expression on the face of Isaiah is characteristic of the genius of Aleijadinho. The expression presents that of a truly enlightened visage, thus becoming one of the most important pieces of the whole architectural complex." These sentences also appear likely to be copyvios; I would recommend removing them. The article would still be good without them.
- In Google Books, I did find snippet views of an informative critical article about the sculptures by J.B. Bury in The Month, Volume 2; Volume 8; publisher Simpkin, Marshall, and Co., 1949. The article is entitled "The Twelve Prophets at Congonhas do Campo" and begins on page 152. From the snippets I can tell you (for example) that the author considers Daniel to be the finest of the Prophets (page 164); that the statues of Isaiah and Jeremiah were among the first ones carved (page 161); that Amos, Nahum, Obadiah, and Habakkuk were probably the last (page 166); that the "the hands" are "nearly all deformed" (page 161); that Joel and Hosea are both holding quill pens in their right hands (page 166); that Joel is holding a scroll open to the book of Joel (page 166); that the statue of Joel "is a stern and formidable figure with an almost sarcastic expression" (page 166); that there is a Byzantine lion on the pedestal next to one of the Prophets (my guess would be Daniel) and that that Prophet has a deformed thumb (page 164); and that Ezekiel holds a scroll in his left hand and has his right arm across his chest (page 163). --Orlady (talk) 16:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Issues still present after 10 days. Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:54, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
