Talk:Shekhawati/Archive 1

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A lot of the stuff on this page absolutely makes no sense. I am from this region and this is the first time I've heard of such excesses against farmers.

This page needs serious modification. Looks like someone is spreading bullshit.


I am from Shekhawati too (Chirawa, Loharu, Bagru, Pilani). You are just posting hearsay. Let me give you an example: you claim literacy of Shekhawati is highest. Government of Rajasthan records show that Ajmer and Jaipur districts have highest literacy. You did not cite any references, just spout off things which have no basis in history. Please cite specific pages, sections and books if you are going to spread such stuff.

I am not a Jagirdar; Jagirdari died 60 years ago, as per your own writings.

You have deleted matter regarding the condition of farmers in Shekhawati before Independence. This is surprising. It is a well known fact that the condition of farmers was worst prior to 1947. This matter was from page 96-97 in the following history book
  • Dr Natthan Singh: Jat - Itihas (Hindi), Jat Samaj Kalyan Parishad Gwalior, 2004

Similar condition of farmers have been recorded not only in India but Russia also in the writings of B.E.Lenin.

If you have seen the film GULAMI by Dharmendra it is the same story repeated. But I do not understand why you feel agitated on this matter.

Who cares about Russia? Now I know why you are writing this stuff: you are a *Communist*! The Communists in India are well-known for re-writing history and spreading lies and propaganda. This is another attempt by you to spread lies, and will not be tolerated.


Regarding the literacy percentage, it keeps on changing. So if you have records you can cite and change accordingly. burdak 16:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Literacy percentage

As regards the Literacy percentage I have taken from Rajasthan Road Atlas, Published by Indian Map Service, Jodhpur the district literacy percentage as under:

How about the literacy rate of Kota? It is even higher than Jhunjhunu.

And Shekhawati is a lot more than just Jhunjhunu district; if you include the entire area, it's literacy rate is not the highest in the state.

I am removing your inflammatory material. None of the authoritative books on Indian history ever mention your fantasical tales about the Jhunjhunu farmers. You are just making this stuff up, and doing a disservice to Wikipedia and the proud people of Shekhawati.


The above book has based the figures on Govt of India Information 2004. Mind that only a part of Churu is included in Shekhawati. So average of Jhunjhunu and Sikar districts are almost the average of Shekhawati region. Compare it with the average of Rajasthan.

The districts you suggest to be highest in Literacy percentage Ajmer and Jaipur have the Literacy percentage as under:

  • Do you still argue that my informations are wrong ?
  • Don't you feel that you have wrongly deleted information from this article without any supporting documents ?
  • Should not it be restored ?
  • Shekhawati region has thus the highest Literacy percentage compared to any other region in Rajasthan.

burdak 02:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I too come from the Shekhawati region. I have ensured the facts and felt my self the excesses on farmers during Jagirdari system. As per above comments on this discussion the deleted matter about exploitation of farmers in Shekhawati is restored. The reference and facts have been provided in support of the matter given in the article. burdak 14:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Jagirdar mentality

Hi, You have still not come out of the Jagirdar mentality. I have quoted the relevant book,page and publisher. It is the policy of Wikipedia that the matter should be from verifiable source. It has been provided. what else do you want. If I am communist how does it matter. Do I not have right to write excesses of Jagirdars. How is it inflamotory. There is no Jagirdar but they are still having hangover of Jagirdari. It shows to what extent they have exploited. There is a policy of deletion and you are not following it. The matter will be restored. Do you think the people who have been mentioned are fictitious. Why do not you go and verify from those villages. Do you think it was ideal condition in Jagirdari system? Then why the Jagirdari abolition Act passed by Rajasthan Govt. ? Let the history be there for the future generations. burdak 02:46, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Communist Party's "victim" mentality

These so-called atrocities you write about are found nowhere except in the Communist Party of India's propaganda material.

Yes, there was a revolt against the Jagirdari movement. Yes, people had to fight for land rights. Nobody is denying that. What I am challenging is your assertion that the Jat farmers of this region were brutally suppressed and shot and killed all the time. Abuses in such scale would have found mention in Pandit Nehru's book, or any of the other 1000 books written around the time of Indian Independence. And yet there is no such mention of such abuses. All you have pointed out is one book by your comrade.

It is also telling that you chose to include your own relatives names as "freedom fighters". Clearly, you are working with an agenda to surreptitiously promote a very biased viewpoint, the central thesis of which is the fantasy that Jats in Shekhawati were brutally repressed before Mr. Burdak and his comrades came along.

I am sorry, but Wikipedia has higher standards than this.

Evidence that Burdak is lying

Mr. Burdak has been spreading lies on this page, without any concern for the truth. I will present here evidence to show that he is lying. As "proof", he presents only 1 book, which, for all we know, is the propaganda publication of the Communist Party of India.

At issue here is his claimed "excesses" against the farmers of the Shekhawati region. He claims that farmers paid over 80% of their produce as "cess" to the Jagirdars (landowners, I guess). First of all, it is humanly impossible to farm land and live on 20% of the produce. Secondly, there is no evidence cited for the various "cesses" he claims they had to pay. He also claimed (a claim since now removed after I deleted his material) that when a farmer married, his bride had to go to the Jagirdar's house first! This claim is laughably preposterous, for a simple reason: there are 1000 times more farmers than Jagirdars! If every bride had to go to the Jagirdar's house for the first night, the Jagirdar would die of exhaustion in a week!

Secondly: none of the published books mention these excesses. It is quite easy to prove this: go to Google Book Search [1] and enter the phrases he has mentioned, and you will find no reference to any of them. For example: Dhunwa lag, Chavri lag, etc.

Thirdly: none of the authoritative texts on India's independence movement mention such excesses.

Fourthly: Mr. Burdak claims the following names as having worked for the Jagirdri Abolition movement: 

   * Iswar Singh Bhamu, Bhairupura,
   * Hari Singh Burdak and Hardeva Burdak,Palthana,
   * Prithvi Singh Bhukar, Gothra (Bhukaran), *Ganeshram Kudan,
   * Panne Singh Batar, Bataranau,
   * Goru Singh Katalathal,
   * Deva Singh Bochalya,
   * Chandrabhan Singh,
   * Hardev Singh Nehra, Harsawa.

Doing a Google Book Search on these results in no mention of these people. Also, and more importantly, Burdak got greedy and decided to insert his own relatives' names into the mix (Hari Singh Burdak and Hardeva Burdak), hoping to boost his own name in his fantasy. Just like Alfred Hitchcock used to make a cameo in his own films, Burdak couldn't resist the opportunity to do the same.

Clearly: this man has issues. He puts forth as evidence the fact that such excesses happened in Russia, as his Comrade Lenin wrote, it seems.

[2]

Deletion of Shekhawati farmers' history is unfortunate

The above gentle man has not signed and has no account so far on Wikipedia. There is a policy of Wikipedia that if contests are from verifiable sources and reference has been given then it can not be deleted without properly discussing on its talk page. But this gentleman is bent upon not to see the content on this page. Where as the contents regarding farmers' history have been there for last one year. Why???

The contents about farmers' history are not my views. It has been taken from page 96-97 of history book by

Dr Natthan Singh is an eminent writer which can be seen from his article. He is not a communist and so is me. I am not a communist. I am Indian wikipedian and contributing articles on historical and geographical subjects from very interior areas of Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh which have not been mentioned properly in the history books. How can the gentleman put allegation on me that I am a communist. I have facts on Wikipedia which can be verified from the references. If Google could not search it was not my fault. Google was not there when the exploitation of farmers was being done by the Jagirdars. Pandit Nehru had not visited those interior areas. If a fact is not mentioned by Pandit Nehru does it mean it is false ???

This unsigned gentleman says that such exploitation is not possible. Was he there at that time. Ask from the elderly persons of Sekhawati area. What was recorded in history was what the rulers wanted. Why the rulers would like that such things come out. Farmers were banned to take education. No schools were permitted for farmers. Then who will and why write their history. The facts mentioned ars true and can be verified from the villages mentioned.

I have mentioned that There were 37 kinds of ‘lags” (taxes) prevalent in the Shekhawati area. Together with the share of the produce known as "Hasil" these cesses meant that the Kisans had to part with more than eighty percent of their produce. The findings of the Sukhdeonarain Committee in the years 1940-42 bear this out. So before deletion from the article kindly verify from the above committee report. It is not a hidden fact. Where is the question of telling lies ???

As regards appering names in the list it is from the above book. They are not my relatives. Burdaks are found in about 20 countries which can be searched from the google search. They are not my relatives. Rather than deleting one should do further research and add more contents. Falt finding is not of any use.

If this type of deletion is done why should I do hard work and contribute to Wikipedia ??? With this request the matter may be restored. burdak 16:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Hidden agenda

It is clear that Mr. Burdak's agenda is a sinister one: to pollute this body of knowledge.

He claims above that he is not a communist. And year earlier he quoted Lenin (not a crime in itself, but when Lenin is the first author that comes to mind, one's communist credentials are in plain view), and when challenged, responded "If I am communist how does it matter. Do I not have right to write excesses of Jagirdars."

The issue here is whether there was systematic abuse of the Jat farmers in Shekhawati. Mr. Burdak paints a bleak picture of massive rapes, torture and killings, the likes of which haven't been seen since. Yet, if you talk to the people of the region, this is all news to them.

Secondly: much has been written about Indian Independence. India's independence heralded the collapse of the British Empire. And for the first time in recorded history, a colonial power was handing over power to its subjects in a peaceful manner (the Partition notwithstanding). Many historians have written tomes on this, and yet none of these books mention the kinds and level of excesses that Mr. Burdak claims. His only source is one book. Out of literally thousands written on these subjects, he finds one and quotes that. Conveniently, this one books is not available anywhere (I checked on Amazon).

There's a book out by Robert Stern, [The Cat and the Lion: Jaipur State in the British Raj], which may shed light on this; and that also makes no mention of such excesses.

Baseless discussion, without knowledge

The hidden agenda mentioned by you seems to be associated with you and not me. I am openly writing in my own name and account. You are writing anonymously without creating your account and disclosing your identity.

You seem to have poor knowledge about the world and Shekhawati you claim to belong. First you alleged that the literacy percentage given in the article is wrong. You said Jaipur and Ajmer are having highest literacy. Your assumptions were based on records of Jagirdari system. The Jaipur ruler promoted education but the Sikar ruler of Shekhawati banned education for farmers. It was because of this reason that the Shekhawati region was backward during British rule and Jagirdari system prior to Independence. It was only after Independence that the farmers of Shekhawati progressed in every field including education. I had proved as above that Shekhawati region has the highest percentage region-wise not the district-wise. It is a free encyclopedia open for all. Don’t find faults rather add something if you have knowledge. You simply believe in deleting rather than editing and improving.

When you were proved wrong on education front you started alleging that I am a communist. Regarding communism it appears you have absolutely no knowledge. The author I quoted above was B.E.Lenin, a socialist writer of Socialist-Revolutionary Party. What you are talking is Vladimir Lenin who was a Communist revolutionary of Russia, the leader of the Bolshevik party, the first Premier of the Soviet Union, and the main theorist of Leninism, which he described as an adaptation of Marxism to "the age of imperialism." There is no correlation between them.

The Shekhawati farmers did not have access to the authors you are mentioning. The way you mentioned “India's independence heralded the collapse of the British Empire. And for the first time in recorded history, a colonial power was handing over power to its subjects in a peaceful manner (the Partition notwithstanding).” It simply indicates your thinking about the farmers of Shekhawati. If you go to the grass-root level you will find the realities. The problem with Shekhawati rulers was that they were aligned with the Muslims first and then the Britishers. In Rajasthan Britishers were not directly ruling but it was through the Jagirdars and that was the reason of excesses on farmers. The Jagirdars had to pay royalty to the British rule as fixed by them and keep themselves surviving. Please go and get a copy of the Hindi film “Gulami” you will get the real picture if you don’t believe the author I quoted. Here is another published book-

  • By Dr Pema Ram: Shekhawati Kisan Andolan ka Itihas, Pages 14, 19, 21, 25, 220

The matter about which you want on internet is available on following sites:-

projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/Shekhawati

Hence the deleted matter about farmers of Shekhawati is being restored. burdak 11:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Same material

The links you have provided above have been written by you. These sites copy material from WikiPedia (it says so on their page), and they have just copied your original bunch of lies from this site. Who are you trying to fool?

Like a loyal Communist apparatchik you are going around spreading lies. I will go to those sites and delete those too.

The moderator has looked at the record and agreed with me that your material was baseless and useless. Several others who I have talked to have agreed with me. Even a reknowned writer for the Rajasthan Patrika, the biggest newspaper in Rajasthan State, has agreed with me.

End of discussion.



I may suggest that simply deleting material from the article is counter productive, as the earlier revisions cannot be deleted. It also does not make the material go away.


In the study of History there will be contrary views. That is and should be welcome

In a modern encyclopedia, such as Wikipedia, one should present all the version available, discuss them, an provide the evidence pro and con, and allow the serious readers to make up their own minds.

We should be grateful for, and treat such sites with respect.

On the Jat led resistance to the Muslim/British appointed/supported rajput zamindar/Jagirdar, there is a lot of material that is coming out today.

For one article see, in the yahoo Jat history forum

Jats in Rajastan- an article on the resistance:

JATS IN RAJASTHAN:

THE HARBINGERS OF DEMOCRATIC COALITION

Prof. Bhawani Singh

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/2960

I will provide more if needed.

Please stop deleting this historical material.

Ravi Chaudhary 02:20, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Specific reason

I have nothing to do personally with this matter. It was part of history which will never be repeated. I just want to know specific reason why this unidentity gentleman does not want this matter to be on Wikipedia?. Why does not he disclose his identity? Is it his Jagir. Every body is free to write. burdak 07:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Gang mentality?

Mr. Chaudhary, I know about the Wiki system. I also know that Mr. Burdak has sent out an email to other Jats, asking them to come and edit this page. This, by the way, is strictly forbidden under the Wiki system.

Mr. Burdak claims I am a Rajput; just because he had donned the blinders of a "Jat", he thinks anybody who opposes him must be a Rajput. I am neither Rajput nor Jat; I am a Rajasthani and an Indian. I don't believe in these "Jat", "Rajput" labels. Mr. Burdak, on the other hand, cannot see anything other than "Jat".

Mr. Burdak asserted here that farmers (Jats) were forced to pay 80% + of their produce to the jagirdars. This is preposterous. No farmer can pay 80% to someone else and hope to survive.

His second claim, and which I found the most offensive, was that Jat farmers were forced to send their brides to the jagirdars upon wedding. This is an outright lie. I know enough Jats to know that this is a white lie.

Mr. Burdak is trying to inflame passions for his own agenda; there's a saying in Hindi, that he's trying to cook a meal on a funeral pyre.

I, as a human being and a (former) resident of this region, am deeply offended to see this man pass off his biased views into an encylopedia. If he is that sure about his views and his research, why not publish it as a book? No one in India has heard of such excesses against any community (other than the Dalits and the Harijans), and people will be interested in reading about it.

Totally disputed

As I can see by the argument above, there's definetly a dispute about that particular section about the farmers. Since it now appears to be an edit war based on a content dispute, and not blatant vandalism. I highly recommend at filing a Request for comment on content disputes, to get more outside output on this. Also, please observe the no personal attacks policy. There's really no room at this talk page for personal critisim. Just cite your reliable sources, so this article could be properly verified. If you can't cite a reliable source, then it doesn't belong on the article. I'll be looking into the article to see what I can do. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 08:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

What does the term "Kisan", "lag" and "cess" mean in the article? I'm trying to make it sound as neutual as I can, but it's difficult when I don't know what those (possibly farming) terms mean. I'm also commenting out the part about marriage, because I can't make a clear grasp on what it means. Does it mean if a "Kisan" marries someone, they must pay a tax on it? As I can make of it, the section appears to be a view of how the Shekhawti's were treated during the British occupation, and that is notable - if it is true. I'd appreciate it if you'd cite the sections I tagged. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 08:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)



Response>


This is not vandalism This is a content 'war', that is all.

I expect it will settle down as more and more references are provided. The references are there.

It is an account of feudal- anti feudal groups and their conflicts. It has, as should be expected, socio- religious overtones, which as most of us are aware, are part of the fabric of every changing, evolving society.

The subject arouses passions, and we must expect emotional responses.

The gentleman deleting the material, has hopefully realized that simply deleting the material , does not make the previous edits/versions go away, so deleting them is counter productive.

This is not to suggest that the person deleting the material, was doing so to cover up the information, but that the person may be genuinely unaware, of the societal conditions that prevailed.

On historical subjects there will be different views and perspectives. To educate the interested reader, my own views that it is preferable to simply point to the material and allow the reader to make up his/her own mind.

'Kisan'- means farmer

'Lagh/cess' means tax.

I will add more as time permits

Best regards


Ravi Chaudhary 14:15, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

As I have pointed out repeatedly, Mr. Burdak is making up stuff. He draws his cues from a fictional movie ("Gulami") and a Communist writer (Lenin). What more do I need to say?

Mr. Burdak is not complaining about the British occupation; if you read his writings, he is actually complimenting the British (read his quote about this region being the "Scotland of India", etc.). His only source of this "history" is one book. How can it be that no one ever wrote about this earlier?

Mr. Burdak claimed that a newly married bride of a farmer would have to go the landowner's house. How is this possible? For him to make such claims is disgraceful. This alone should tell you that he has a hidden agenda (which I've mentioned earlier: he's a Communist Party of India operative).

Wikipedia has strict guidelines against using shill sites to bolster a point of view; why isn't there any action taken against Mr. Burdak's sites that he linked? All of them are written by him, and contain the same material. How can these be construed as proof?

Every day that these falsehoods sit on the web, they are indexed by Google and these lies continue to spread.


Response to poster ID 69.232.202.229

Let us see if we can bring some calm into this discussion.

The Shekavati area is not qualitatively, very different from the rest of Rajastan, ( old British Rajputana, or old Jangaldesh).

The Shekavati area was just a microism of the larger feudal society.

What we are discussing is the rise and fall of the Rajput( feudal) phenomena, and the conditions of the populace where they held power.

The populace included, rajputs who did not hold power but just tilled the land. The rest of the populace, was made of Jats, Bhils, Gujjars, Meenas, and other communities.

The Jats were the most in numbers.

What we are looking at is how the ‘rajput’ community evolved, and where from? How did some of them come to power? How did they retain that power?

What kind of society was it, prior to, during, and after, the Rajput phenomena?

The correct term for rajput is ‘feudalist’. It is not a race or an ethnic class, though over the last few centuries, it ads acquired an ethic classification.

The origins of this group, has been much discussed, and I will again draw your attention the discussions on the Yahoo Jat history group which have plenty of links and references to various points or view,

The class of Rajputs, has its origins in families of Jats, Gujjars, Bhils Meenas, anyone who acquired some power, and followed the Hindu caste system, which put the priest ’the brahmin’- Pujari on top. That is what explains why the rajput class, has common clan names as the Jats etc.

A good place for a beginner to start would be:

R S Joon: History of the Jats, Chapter VIII- Jats and rajputs

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1087

The whole book is on- line in the files section. To access become a member. All welcome.

I mention this, only to provide a base, an overall view, and ensuing discussing will provide more material.

If you know Hindi, Thakur Desraj’s book is also online in the files section

Starting with Thakur Desraj in the 1925, and increasingly over the last 60 years, a lot of material has been coming out, about these conditions. Some researchers are Dr. Vir Singh, Dr Dilbagh Singh, Prof Bhavani Singh, Dr Pema Ram to name just a few. Much of the material is in Hindi, not English and has not received the widespread distribution material in English receives. I will provide a list of additional references.

One thing is clear- the Rajput era, was a feudal era, in which the landlord, (Jagirdar) held unlimited power over the populace, his tenants.

Land was allocated to the tenants. They had no rights of succession. They could not dig a well, erect a hut, cut a tree, and open a school, without the permission of the landlord. In fact education was denied, for a population in ignorance and servitude was the goal of the feudalists.

The population lived is servitude, at and for, the pleasure of the landlord. They were serfs in the truest sense of the word.

This form of society is quite common historically and is found in all countries.

This form of society was also quite alien to the Jat society, which was republican, and hence the constant confrontation between the two forms.

We do not find the Rajput society extant before the rise of the Muslim power in the Indian subcontinent.

It is at this time that we find the Rajput power developing and getting consolidated. We find that the Muslim conquest of India, the military contractors were the Rajputs, who provided the armies, served them loyally, and received title to these estates in reward.

The populace becomes a resource to be exploited.

Following the Muslim period, in the British colonial period, we find that the right to continue being the landlord is enshrined and enforced by the British. The populace was now even more under the heel of the feudal Rajput landlord.

The resistance and revolts never ceased.

In the late 1800’s and the early 1900’s they took on greater momentum. And finally post independence –1947, the Zamindari/Jagirdari system was abolished by law in the early fifties.

Legal abolishment stopped the worst excesses, but in many parts of rural Rajastan as in the many parts of India (Eastern U.P, Bihar, Orissa, Bengal, Andhra, and modern Pakistan,. Bangladesh), the Zamindari system carried on, in all but in name; the serf, the tenant farmer continued to be one, his/her life , their children’s lives, did not change. - This is one reason we are seeing the Naxal/Marxist movement grow in these areas.)

That is a brief synopsis.

The feudal Rajput, supported by his priest, and the trader/moneylender, formed a nexus that exploited the populace.

The taxation was such, that it as effectively over 90%.

The original system was theoretically- the tenant would till the land and split the produce 50/50.

The actuality was, the tenant would have to pay for the seed, the water, the ox, the hut, and then the other cesses that would levy upon his family. He had no savings, no capital, and had to borrow each year, interest was charged to him at the rate of over 2 / 5%or more a week.( there was no limit to interest rates) Being illiterate, the debt could only grow and never be paid off. The debt would be inherited by his offspring and they would be liable for it forever.

On birth of a child, on marriage of his daughter or son he had to pay a tax. On the death of a member of his family, a tax was paid. He had to provide hospitality in his home, food and fodder, for the feudal Jagirdars henchmen, when they came to collect, what their master had determined they should collect.

If the victim did not pay, his children including daughters would be taken as hostage. It should be unexpected that some abuse also occurred.

All in all the researchers estimate and confirm the verbal accounts, that the effective rate of taxation was over 90%, leaving next to nothing for survival.

In the Jat areas- there was thus a constant confrontation, and the feudal landlord could only get away with this where he could bring overwhelming force. Overwhelming force could only be brought to bear, when his masters, British or Muslim, came to his aid. 

The Jat kinship and panchayat /Khap system meant, that the Jats   had a base or power structure that could never be completely eliminated-  there was always an uneasy truce and violence often, as the Jats fought for their families, and their land..

A regards assaults and ill treatment of the populace’s women, one could say this.

It is not inconceivable that some feudal landlord could on occasion isolate a Jat family and get away with it; in general they would pay a heavy price and blood would and did flow.

They would be able to get away with and did against the weaker communities.

When the populace rose, they did so under Jat leadership. Schools were established, schools were burnt down. The leaders were killed outright and the families killed too.

Eventually the resistance succeeded , the feudal regime was eliminated. India gained Independence,-1947 Democracy was established, and the feudalism entered a period of decline( reluctantly, and kicking and screaming).

All this is the grist of history. It may not make pleasant reading for some, but it is there.

There is no point in trying whitewashing it away.

Far better to acknowledge it and deal with it

For background material, I suggest you start with archives of the Jathistory forum.

The URL is:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

I am one the moderators.

The archives are public; for the files section you do need membership.

To be a member, the rule is that language used in posts must be appropriate. No personal attacks, inflamatory posts. Material that is factual, though uncomfortable to certain view points is permitted and welcome.


Lastly 69.232.202.229 , I generally feel more comfortable knowing the identity of whom I am having a discussion with.In academic professionla matters this is expected.

This is a history section, I will question if anonymous posters should expect to be taken seriously.

When you are ready, do please come forward!

Best regards

Ravi Chaudhary 13:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Sad

The farmers' rights movement was but a footnote in the varied history of this region. Must the largest section of this writeup be devoted to so-called excesses by one small section of the society on another small section?

This part of Rajasthan is famous for its art and its entrepreneurship. A web search on Amazon gives 6 books on the painted walls (for which this area is world-famous) and 1 book on the entrepreneurship of the Marwaris of this area.

All of this Jat-Jagirdar business is nothing but old grouses brought onto the Internet. My recommendation is that failing incontrovertible proof, they be deleted; or at the very least, reduced to 1 or 2 paragraphs. Bkumar1976 23:20, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Disclaimer

This was an edit written to the main article, now moved here:

The following 5 paragraphs have absolutely no historical basis. None of the reputable published accounts of India's Independence movement, or the Farmers' Rights movements, make any mention of the excesses mentioned herein. While farmers all across India had to fight for rights, no doubt, this was not isolated to the Shekhawati region. So, for this material to be included in the Shekhawati section is meaningless.

Please avoid using personal opinion on the articles. While on the topic of personal opinion. If that section doesn't get cleaned up and sourced soon, I'll delete it as original research. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 05:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
While looking into this, I've noticed the section is an abstract version of the Hari Singh Burdak article. That article has two references, one which is reliable. Since User:LRBurdak was the one who wrote the article, could you please you <ref> style citations pointing to what part of the book those particular edits are part of? Which brings me to another question; your username is VERY similar to the subject of the article I referred to. May I ask what is your relationship to Hari Singh Burdak? You may want to read Wikipedia:Autobiography very carefully. --06:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Dear Moderator

.. or should I say "Dear Abby" ? ;-)

I was brought up in this region of Shekhawati. I went to school there. I know a little bit of the history.

I flatly refuse to believe what Mr. Burdak is writing, for various reasons:

1. None of the published books on the Indian Farmers' agitation movements (and there have been several) mention anything resembling what he has written. 2. Mr. Burdak claimed (and this can be verified) that the brides of these farmers had to spend their first night in the landlord's house. This is preposterous and extremely insulting to every Indian out there. This is not in our culture. Maybe Mr. Burdak is expressing deep-rooted fantasies; I don't know. But logically and factually this is wrong. It made my blood boil to read an outright lie like this. 3. Mr. Burdak claims Hari Singh Burdak (a relative, ostensibly) was a "great freedom fighter". Unfortunately, none of the books written on the Indian Freedom movement mention this gentleman. Google Book Search is your friend (thank you, almighty Google). 4. Mr. Burdak claims that 80% of the farmer's produce had to be given to the landlord. I am sorry, but no farmer on this planet can survive on 20%. Especially considering the fact that in those days, farming methods were so backward that the farmer was happy to get by. Even today, farmers all over India regularly commit suicide because they can't survive on just farming; and this is despite the Green Revolution.

I have listed a recently published book by Stern above. That makes no mention of any of these fantasies, and this book is about this region and this time period.

Once again I'll say: a Google Book Search for the words "shekhawati farmers" results in no mention of the things he writes. Even though GBS has indexed many Indian reports and books on the jagirdari abolition movement, there is no mention of these things (try a GBS on jagirdari abolition movement, and see the number of hits).

First of all, try not to put down Mr. Burdak by saying he has deep rooted fantasies. It's just rude. Also, the more I look into the issues about the farmers, the more I think it's a hoax. I have recently issued an outside request for comment on this whole article, as you see below. Hopefully they can help a bit. I'm currently at my local library and after I'm done with this, I may look up some books about India, see if I can find anything on it. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 23:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm grateful that you're looking into this.

I was (and still am) extremely upset at Mr. Burdak for making such preposterous claims. The bride thing was an outright lie. It upsets me because in this part of the country we treat women with respect. Preserving the honor of a woman is paramount. Mr. Burdak's claim of such behaviour was reprehensible; the only reason that I can think of why he would make such a claim is to offend people. The whole writeup of his was offensive; but this bride thing just took the cake.

Look at it another way: a search of books in Amazon comes up with 6 books on the painted walls of Shekhawati. And yet these frescoes barely get a mention! The thing that has made this region world-famous barely gets a mention; and stuff that is totally undocumented and unverified occupies centerstage! Sure we can do better. 69.232.202.229 02:47, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

RFC

1st thought - woud all the participants please sign their comments? I am having a heck of a time following this... 2nd thought - there is a lot of missing citation tags - perhaps someone could fill some of these in, if they cannot be substantiated, they probably need to leave.Bridesmill 22:58, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


response 1- by Ravi Chaudhary


In recent years plenty of research has been done on the resistance movements in the Rajasthan area and on the place of the Jats in the history of this area.


As a bit of background, one is unlikely to find much about this in the conventional History texts.

In conventional History texts in India, the Jats do not receive much attention. As such their contributions, their struggles, their history have largely been ignored.

The thrust of Indian history textbooks has been to show this area as ruled by a class of people known as ‘rajputs’.

The research however shows that this are was held by the Jats upto the 14th /15th century AD, who had primarily a republican society, governed by local councils, from the village level upto a pan geographical area.

The rajput phenomena was indicative of the creation of a class, monarchial/feudal in nature, which received a lot of emphasis in the Islamic and British colonial periods. The rajput class received rich rewards and protection of their estates from both the Islamic and the British forces, for their support to them.

The Jat led resistance never ceased, it just did not receive the treatment in history books that it should have.

This is probably not the place to get into this discussion of why this is the case, yet the Shekavati area is important, as it is here that a lot of the conflict and resistance took place, and ultimately the Rajput feudal power was broken, and democracy restored(1947). 

For readers interested there is much material including on line books, on the Yahoo Jathistory list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

This area of history has not received the attention it deserved, but this is being corrected, as more and more research is being done and published.

Some of the researchers are Dr Pema Ram, Punam Chand Johiya, Dr Girija Shankar Sharma, Dr Vir Singh, and Dr Kanti Lal Mathur , Prof Bhawani Singh, Dr Dilbagh Singh..

The Surajmal Educational Society, New Delhi for the last few years has been hosting conferences in Jat history, and a number of papers have presented. Some of these papers appear in the books referred to below.

The sources include the Court records of the Jodhpur and Bikaner states, as which were known as ‘Vahis’ or ‘Bahis’ , as well as the records of the Jats themselves.

Some Sources:

1 Vahis (Court Records) of Jodhpur Bikaner Vahis published by Rajasthan State Archives, Bikaner, Rajasthan, 

2	Jodhpur court records (Sanad Parvana Vahi record of letters), 
    
3	 Jat Sarv Khap records, Shoron, Muzzafarnagar, U.P.  India

4. History of the peoples revolution in Shekhawati (Kisan Andolan ka Ithihaas), Dr Pemaram

5 Marwar Hitkarni Sabha( Marwar liberation group)- Records 

     6	Agrarian Movements in Rajasthan- Dr. Pemaram

7 Report of the Marwar Jat Shri Krishak Sabha - Hindi (Marwar Jat Agrarian Group)

8 The State, Landlords and Peasants, - Rajasthan in the 18th century, Prof. Dilbagh Singh (1990.) New Delhi

9 Village conflict in Eighteenth Century Rajasthan, (Pub in ‘Shodak’, No. 64, 1993.

10 History of the Jats ‘Jat Ithihaas’ Dr Nathan Singh, ( 2004) Pub by Jat Samaj Kalyan Parishad, F-13, Dr Rajendra Prasad Colony, Tansen marg, Gwalior, M.P, India 474 002

11 Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan, Col James Tod, Reprint 1983, Munshiram Manhoarlal Lal Publishers, 54 Rani Jhansi road, New Delhi, India


Papers presented by the above in the book, The Jats- their Role and Contribution of the socio-economic life and Polity of North and North West India- Vol –I,.(2004) ) D K Publisher Distributors (P) Ltd, New Delhi ( www:dkpd.com )ISBN 81 -88629-52-9


1 Professor Dr. Dilbagh Singh- Aspects of Jat uprising –pp78

2 Dr Girija Shankar Sharma- Rajasthan Rajya Abhilehkhagar Bikaner mein Jat Jathi ke mahtvapurna Srothra ( Important writings about the Jats in the Rajasthan State Archives, Bikaner

3 Punam Chand Johiya – Jat Sandhbrika Sanad Parvana Bahi,( Jat related written records ) Jodhpur ( 1973- 1939) pp 197

4 Dr Girija Shankar Sharma – Rajasthan Ke Uthardhayi Shashan ke liye huve Jan Andolan aur Jat nethrav( Jat Leadership in the peoples revolution for responsible democratic Government in Rajasthan)

5 Dr Pema Ram- Marwar mein Kisan Jagriti ke Karndar( The leaders of the awakening of the people of Marwar) ( pp 247) [for an English translation of article see : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/3049 ]


Papers presented at the History Conference of the Surajmal Educational Society, New Delhi , April 2005( compiled in the book, edited by Dr Vir Singh- The Jats – Their role and Contribution to the Socio – Economic life and Polity of North and North West India – Vol 2, ( 2005) ) D K Publisher Distributors (P) Ltd, New Delhi ( www:dkpd.com )ISBN 81 -88629-52-9


1. Dr Sahi Ram- Jats and their struggle for Democracy in Rajasthan

2. Professor Bhawani Singh- Jats in Rajasthan-The Harbingers of Democratic Coalition

3. Dr Bhrmaram Choudhry- Bikaner Sanbagh mein Samaj Seviyon duara Jat Samaj mein Shiksha Prasar, Samaj Sudhar, Rajnetjick Chethna evam Arthik Vikas mein Yogdan ( The contribution by the public leaders to education, societal reform, in the Jat Society of Bikaner)

4. Dr. Girija Shankar Sharma- Rajasthan mein Swathantra Purv Jaton ki vyakithak Mein Jati Panchayton ki Bhumika ( The efforts and contribution of the Jats in the ( panchayats) democratic councils in the pre independence period in Rajasthan)

5. Dr Girija Shankar Sharma ‘Jan Chethna ke Agrdoot ‘, Bikaner Ke Jat ( The Jats of Bikaner- the harbingers of the awakening of the people).


I will add more as time permits

Ravi Chaudhary 03:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC) 

   As a native of Shekhawati I find Mr Burdak and Mr Chaudhary writing things which I have never heard. Farmers movements, India's freedom movement and related subjects have been discussed, debated and written upon in millions of pages for the past 60 years after India achieved independance. Nothing, however about Shekhawati in this context.

Shekhawati  has been a well known area of Rajasthan but has never been known as some cradle of peasant revolution, or for any significant  role in the Indian freedom struggle unlike certain parts of India like Bihar and places like Chauri Chaura (famous for the massacre of policemen of British India) - areas where intense struggles took place during the freedom movement. Incidentally the latter are today also known for the  Maoist and Naxalite activities.

 What is significant about Shekhawati is a great history of art and architecture enshrined in the painted 'havelis'. This area has also been historically famous for successful traders who ventured out or Rajasthan - Marwaris - many of whom (such as Birlas, Jhunjhunwalas, Singhanias) are today the business and industry leaders of India.

Jodhpur? Muzzafarnagar?

Jodhpur court records? Muzaffarnagar court records? What does that have to with Shekhawati? Why don't you put the material in the Jodhpur city WiKi then? In an article about Shekhawati, why are we listing court records from far away places like Muzaffarnagar? Is it because these records cannot be verified independently by anyone else?


And more importantly: the ISBN number of this reference, 8188629529, does NOT exist!

Moderator, can you please put an end to this edit war? I am tired of cleaning up after these people.

69.232.202.229 03:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


'RESPONSE>>'

Mr 69.232.202.229

There is no edit war.

There is simply you deleting referenced material, which we have already suggested is counter productive.

On your post, it would help if you studied History a little.

When someone, Lbmixpro in this case, offers his help and asks for an RFC we should respect it, and provide factual material only, not degenerate the discussion.

The anonymous poster, should show a little more respect for the process.

We should also respect the fact the LBMIXPRO is not a historian, but is taking his time to help out.

It becomes incumbent upon participants to assist him not take advantage of his lack of knowledge on the history of India, and Rajasthan.

It is fairly clear that this anonymous poster has no knowledge of history.

To try and clear up the three points raised in his last post:


JODHPUR RECORDS:

The Shekavati area is a small part of the old Marwar district. About the 15th century we find some small feudal a states being established, Bikaner, Jodhpur. The small feudal estate of Shekavati was established by a split off, of a family, who received the Shekavati estate, as a reward from the Muslim Emperor Jehangir as reward for their assistance to him in the wars in the conquest of India.

From that time onwards , they owed their allegiance to the Muslim rulers of Delhi, paid taxes to them, provided troops and war material and adopted their cultural mores.

The courts records of Jodhpur, Bikaner, Jaipur, etc all have are primary sources, which give us an idea of the social, administrative, and tax structures of the time The contain, to all but the most obtuse, valuable historical data, that simply cannot be pooh poohed away.


SARV KHAP RECORDS, SHORON, DISTT MUZZAFARNAR.

The anonymous poster would do well to read what is written.

Here the reference is not the "any' court records at all.

The reference is to the records of the Jat Sarv Khap (or panchayat), which had its capital, in what is now the village of Shoron, District of Muzzarfarnagar, Uttar Pradesh. In the period we are referring to, it was the capital of the republic, and faced the invasion onslaughts of the Muslims. The History of the influence of the Sarv Khap spread at that time from Western U.P, to Punjab, to Rajasthan, to Madhya Pradesh. Formed in 600 CE, by Harsh Vardhan the Jat emperor of Thaneswar.

It would annual meeting, and meetings every five years, where delegates of the smaller Khaps (m panchayats) who travel from the distant Khaps. It was the successor if you will, of the earlier Republican states, of ganrajyas, of the Yaudheyas of Northern India. Some of their records have survived the turmoil of the centuries, and they shed valuable light on the times.

A book that deals with this in English, is by Dr Bal Kishan Dabas, who did his PhD thesis on this subject, as is present a lecturer in History at the Shivaji College, New Delhi.

It is also available at D K Publishers, WWW.dkpd.com

Political And Social History Of The Jats Bal Kishan Dabas

Year of Publication: 2001 ISBN: 81-7453-045-2

If the poster is unaware of this historical material, that is not the responsibility of others.


2. ISBN #

He 69.232.202.229 writes" 

more importantly: the ISBN number of this reference, 8188629529, does NOT exist!"

How odd: The anonymous poster cannot find the book. Yet all he had to do was click on the website link given: the website of the on line book shop is given ( www.dkpd.com) the site belongs to D K Publishesr, New Delhi, an old and reputed House.

They also ship to the US

A click shows the publishers shows the same ISBN #.

The URL to the book, summary and contents is as below.

http://www.dkpdindia.com/Jats.htm

Book Details


Jats Vir Singh (Ed.)

Bibiliography : 268 pages, 23 cm. Hard Cover Year of Publication : 2003 ISBN : 8188629162

About the Book:[ from the site]

The present publication is the outcome of two National Seminars on the Jat History and Culture. The Jats are one of the prominent preasant community among the Indian population today. The origins and traditions of the Jats go back to dim antiquity. A critical study of the past history of such a community on the basis of all available material cannot fail to be a subject of deep interest and instruction to all Indians.

The Scholars have assembled some of the rarest evidence available in Indian and non Indian sources and telescoped into a knowledgeable and inspiringly readable ;historical analysis. The salient features of this publication are.

1. Clan structure of the Jats, mobility and their early settlements and diffusion to other parts of North-West India in ancient period

2. Geographical spread of Jat settlements and migrations within and outside India in early medieval period.

3. Crystalization of the Jats as Zamindars and dominant peasant community nature of Jat uprising and the process of Jat state formation.

4. Social and political awakening and Jat peasant movements in modern period.

5, Aspects of social,economic and cultural life of the Jat community. About the Author: Dr. Vir Singh a dedicated teacher after superannuation from Shaheed Bhagat College, Delhi University in 2000 is presently an Honorary Director of the Research and Publication Centre, Surajmal Memorial Education Society, New Delhi. He has been actively engaged in the administrative educational and research activities of the Society since 1976 as joint Secretary of the Excecutive Committee (9Years) and Secretary Academic Committee since 1985 till date.

His reasearch work 'Kamayani Ki Katha: Govershnatmak Anusheelan' was published in 1975. While explaining different aspects of history,geography,sociology,psychology,philosophy and allegory of this ancient narrative of deluge and development of mankind thereafter, he learnt inter-disciplinary approach which he utilised while ;establishing the aforesaid Research Centre. He ;has used his intensive study of the Jats for the Centre's research work in optimum way.

He Updated three prominent works on Jat History: 1. Wendel's Memoires on Jats in Hindi 'Hindustan Mein Jat Satta' 2. History of the Jats,Prof. K.R. Qanungo 3. The Jats : Their Role in the Mughal Empire< Dr. G C Dwived

His edited works are: 1. Ganga Sagar, verses of Sant Gangadas 2. Reminiscences of a ;Revolutionary-Raja Mahendra Pratap 3. Jat Aur Mughal Samaarajya(in Hindi), Dr. G C Dwivedi 4. Maharaja Jawahar Singh Aur Uttaraadhikari (in Hindi), Upendra Nath Sharma

A Series of three National Seminars are to his credit also on: The ;Jats: Their Role and Contribution to the Socio-Economic Life and Polity of Nort and North-West India

The present volume is the outcome of these seminars Contents: Foreword

Introduction

Jat Itihas ki parsangikata

Jat Itihas ke shodh sambahavanaye

A Socio cultural Profile of Jats in Norts-west India

Jats in Ancient India

Jat aur Hun Akarman

The Jat in Shah Nama of Firdowsi

Arbi Satoterto mein jat

The jats of Panjab and ;Sind

The ;Role of the Jats in the Economic

Aspects of jat uprising

Agrarian Conditions in the Territories of Jats

An Appraisal of the rise of the jats in the later 17th century

Emergence of jats in Agra region in the first half of the 18th century

Jat Diplomacy during the Early Eighteenth century

Jat Chivalry in Pre-British Days

Maharaja Surajmal ke dwara sathapit Bharatpur rajaya ke vaidhata

Hindustan mein jatsata Itihasik Mulyakan

Pachimi Rajsthan ke ;jat samaj mein nata partha(1700-1800)

Rajasthan ;rajaya abhilekhagar Bikaner mein Jat jati ke mahatavpuran satorat

Jat sandbirka sanad parvana bahi Jodhpur(1763-1939)

Rajasthan ke utterdayi shashan ke liye hue jan andolan aur jat natertav

Jats ;in the Maratha-sources Akhbara-I Darbar-I Mu'Alla

Maharaja Durjan Sal A Victim of British Prejudices and Aggression

History and life of the Jat Rajas as reflected in the historical monuments of Bharatpur State

Jats and the revolt of 1857

Marwar mein kisan jagriti ke karandar jat

Trends and prospects END.

One would suggest that this anonymous poster stop this tirade, follow the links, read the material, and come up with referenced material to refute anything that Mr Burdak or I have posted , instead of simply making personal attacks.


Ravi Chaudhary 20:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Sources quoted for the matter on Shekhawati farmers

Justice Kan Singh, retired Judge of High Court of Rajasthan, wrote on page 47 in an article in English in SOUVENIR-1998 of Parivar Parichay, published by – The souvenir sub committee of Parivar Parichay, 4/28, Lodi Colony, New Delhi – 110003, Ph 011-24694972 as under:

“Every thing that the Kisan had, never treated as his own. In Jagir areas all cultivators were really landless. There was no tenancy law and one could be thrown away from the land one cultivated at the pleasure of Jagirdar, his "malik". In most of the Jagirs a Jagirdar would in the first instance be taking fifty percent of the produce. This would be taken by actual division of the produce on the thrashing floor or by appraisal of the standing crop (kunta). Then over and above the share of the produce the Kisan had to pay numerous "lags" or cesses. Together with the share of the produce known as "Hasil" these cesses meant that the Kisans had to part with more than eighty percent of their produce. The findings of the Sukhdeonarain Committee in the years 1940-42 bear this out. If a Kisan had to marry his daughter he had to pay "Chavri Lag" if he held a dinner then a "Kansa Lag"; if members of the family separated then "Dhunwa Lag" and so on. If the Jagirdar had a guest then fodder for his mount had to be supplied. Then there was "begar" that is forced labour, for tilling the personal lands of the Jagirdar. The homestead in which the Kisan lived in the Abadi had to be vacated in case he ceased cultivating the land. He could not alienate the plot to anyone.”

Dr Natthan Singh in his book on Jat History in the light of facts – “Jat Itihas (Hindi)” published in 2004 by Jat Samaj Kalyan Parishad Gwalior, Ph 0751- 2332130 writes on page 96-97 in Hindi, which makes sense as under:

“Before independence the conditions of the farmers were worst. The farmers of the Shekhawati region were exploited and oppressed by the Jagirdars during British Raj. They were deprived of fundamental rights. When the Jagirdars did not get cesses known as “lag” or “begar” in time, they were given hard punishments and their crops were destroyed. There were 37 kinds of ‘lags” prevalent in the Shekhawati area. Farmers of the Shekhawati, mainly the Jats, united against oppression of Jagirdars by forming ‘Sikar Jat-Kisan-Panchayat’ and stopped giving "lags" or cesses to the Jagirdards. The ‘Jaipur Praja-Mandal’ also supported the Shekhawati farmers’ movement against abolition of Jagirdari system. The leaders of ‘Bijoria-Kisan-Movement’ of 1922, 1931, and 1932 supported the movement of Shekhawati farmers. The Jagirdars tried to suppress the movement in many ways. Many farmers were killed and a large number were sent to jail. A Jat farmer was beaten to death in the market of Sikar town; his dead body was thrown and insulted. This movement got support from famous Kisan leaders like, Baldev Ram Mirdha, Nathuram Mirdha and Chaudhari Kumbharam Arya. After a long struggle the farmers got rid of oppression and got the ownership rights over the land they were cultivating. The leading Jat farmers of Shekhawati region, who played important role in the movement for abolition of the Jagirdari system, were:

Shekhawati farmers' movement against abolition of Jagirs got great support from outside Kisan leaders like Sir Chhotu Ram from Haryana, Kunwar Ratan Singh and Thakur Deshraj from Bharatpur, Kunwar Hukum Singh from Aangai.”

The name of Hardev Singh Nehra, Harsawa to the above list of freedom fighter farmers was added on the basis of report published in ‘Rajasthan Patrika’, a local Hindi newspaper, on 29 March 1997.

If you see the early version of this article from its history you will find that above names of freedom fighter farmers were given with name of villages as have been mentioned by Dr Natthan Singh as quoted above. At serial number two of this list there were two names viz Haru Singh and Hardeva Palwana. In fact the village Palthana was miss spelt as Palwana. I later visited the Shekhawati area and confirmed from local sources and corrected their surnames as well as Palwana to Palthana.

The surnames were given in a book “Jat Jwala” Vth issue published by All India Jat Mahasabha, Sikar in year 2002. It is in Hindi. It was confirmed from an article on freedom fighters in Shekhawati in this book on page 37 that it was Hari Singh Burdak who was earlier mentioned as Haru Palwana by Dr Natthan Singh and so was in this article.

So the allegation that he was my relative is not correct. I do not belong to his district Sikar. Had he been my relative I would not have recorded his name wrongly. This is the result of continuous research and exploration that true facts have come to light.

It is thus clear from above that the matter being disputed is written by Justice Kan Singh, retired Judge of High Court of Rajasthan. Justice Kan Singh has also mentioned in above article that the present generation can not even think of what our ancestors have tolerated. It is further supported by Dr Pema Ram, and other records provided by Ravi Chaudhary.

I am visiting very interior areas of Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh in India. These places hardly find any literature in English or on Internet. I ensure from the field visit and literature in local languages about the authenticity of the matter. If Wikipedia does not like it I will leave giving articles on it. Thanks. burdak 06:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you can find the sources in accordance to WP:RS, then it's all good. Can you also cite each area as a <ref>blah</ref>, so we can easily pinpoint what reference goes to what part of the article? But I have one last concern. Can we try to keep the farmers section of the article balanced the the rest of it? If you want to have an in-depth look into the mistreatment of farmers, you can create a new article about it; for example: Shekhawati farmers during the British Raj or something similar. Also, I'd like to see modern day statistics of farming. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 08:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The point is

There's a very basic fact that Msrs Burdak and Choudhary aren't addressing: were these so-called excesses restricted to Shekhawati?

Such excesses (but not at the scale mentioned here) occurred all over India. The Telangana movement in Andhra Pradesh is rooted in the mistreatment of farmers; and so is the Naxal movement in West Bengal and Bihar.

If these excesses were of such a magnitude and they were especially prevalent in Shekhawati, don't you think someone else would have written about it? I find it extremely offensive that you chose to paint this whole region by the alleged misdeeds of the few; "misdeeds" that are mysteriously coming to light after 60 years?

Mr. Burdak claims that he visits the internal areas of Rajasthan; this is not possible. He is a high-ranking Government bureaucrat in the state of Madhya Pradesh, and therefore is not an unbiased student of history. Given that the Bhopal Disaster happened in his state, why does he not put a large section on it on the state's page, Madhya Pradesh?

While I did not want to mention this earlier, I have no choice but to point out that Mr. Burdak's state continues to repress tribals even today. Even worse: the very department that Mr. Burdak heads, the Forestry Department of Madhya Pradesh, has a long history of destroying tribal forests and denying them their rights. Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian writer, has been championing the cause of tribal rights in Mr. Burdak's state for more than 2 decades.

Please read the following links for a background on how Mr. Burdak's department has been raping the tribal lands and destroying their forests: [[3]] [[4]] [[5]]

A Google search for "madhya pradesh adivasis and forestry department" comes up with over 12 thousand hits.

69.232.202.229 14:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPA
I would humbly disagree that it is a personal attack.

I was looking around for some background on the writer who claims to have so much knowledge about this area. In my searching around, I found something that was a bombshell in this context. Mr. Burdak is the head of a department of the Madhya Pradesh government: the department of Forestry. He is the Chief Conservator of Forests; the control and management of all tribal forest land is under him. He is the commander in chief of this department, so to speak. This information is pertinent, because while Mr. Burdak is keen to bring up marginal slights from a bygone era, his own employees today are abusing the rights of millions of tribals (Adivasis). No less a person than Ms. Arundhati Roy has been fighting a campaign against this department for nearly 20 years. Please read the links I posted; there are 12,000 more. I find this to be the height of duplicity that the same person who is claiming to champion the struggle of farmers (real or perceived) from 60 years ago, presides over a department that is doing much worse things today.

This is not a personal attack; please read the news articles I have linked above. A Google search for the phrase " madhya pradesh adivasis and forestry department" will get you a lot more hits.

Also, please keep in mind that Mr. Burdak had, in an earlier version of this page, made a claim that the bride of a Jat farmer had to spend the first night at the landlord's house; a claim that he has since quietly withdrawn. Had I not edited the matter and pointed it out, it would still be on this site. This fact points to the ability of Mr. Burdak to make up material.

69.232.202.229 05:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

The point is that anonymous posters are making personal attacks,and deleting references and links.


If they are uninformed about the history of Rajastan, they would be better off reading the references, rather than deleting them!

Ravi Chaudhary 21:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


At least I know how to spell "Rajasthan" and "Shekhawati". 69.232.202.229 05:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with moderator that this Jat history business does not belong in this section. I came here looking for information on painted havelis, all I am fidning is old grouses being dredged up. Please tell us about the beauty of the area and it's proud history; the land of the warrior Rajputs and the Rajputana Regiment of Indian Army; the land where women would commit Sati rather than be taken prisoner. Not how much fodder a farmer had to give to someone!

Bkumar1976 00:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

You're thinking of Jauhar. Sati had nothing to do with being taken prisoner. 69.232.202.229 05:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


PERSONAL ATTACKS

        • In India there is a category of Non Merit Appointees to Top Government positions (called OBC Reservation categories). Mr BURDAK are you an OBC appointee?? Perhaps Mr Burdak is doing more work writing political histories rather work for the upliftment of tribals in his state of Madhya Pradesh; otherwise why the deplorable conditions of tribals as has been highlighted by a commentator above. These comments may sound personal. My apologies, but the background of people who are politically inclined has to be highlighted when we evaluate their utterances and writings.[posted by anonymous IP 59.94.102.234]


response>

History is a political subject, a study of human beings and their societies.

Personal attacks are not a substitute for evidence and fact, nor conducive to the study of history

We generally hope to learn from history- what caused the conditions of a society, , including the tribals of Madhya Pradesh, in Central India , that you draw our attention to.

What caused the feudal conditions in Shekhawati to develop and exist? What was the socio- religious- money lender nexus, that caused so much tyranny for the population.

How did the public maintain their cohesiveness, and even in the darkest days not lose their family structures, their political structures, their identities, and not be reduced to the pathetic conditions of tribals ( e,g in Madhya Pradesh, and Eastern U.P, Bihar, etc) and others wherever these feudal regimes existed?.

Why did the feudal society not succeed ?

How was the tyranny of these feudal regime broken eventually?.

These are all valid questions, and people do want to know. .

Making personal attacks is not going to make the evidence for the atrocities in the Shekhawati and other places go away or stop the information from being disseminated.


Ravi Chaudhary 20:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Mr Chaudhary for accepting that you have a political agenda, but we would have appreciated a response from Mr Burdak. Are you a proxy for Mr Burdak? Be that as it may, Wikipedia is for recording facts and not furthering political agendas. Truth is the first casualty in Politics. So please keep politics out of Wikipedia.[posted by 59.94.98.30]


Response: Dear 59.94.98.30,

You are wrong, I have no political agenda, my interest is history and that the material be accurately presented( as far as is possible)!

Mr Burdak has has presented facts and historical evidence.Instead of dealing with that, personal attacks have been made on him, as if doing that would make the evidence go away.

You demand a response from Mr Burdak. He has responded, please go back and read the discussions.

The question is - Why should he or anyone else, particpate further if the only thing one can expect is personal attacks?

Personal attacks are not going to make the historical evidence go away. All these personal attacks do is to cloud the discussion with unnecessary verbage.

Expect more material to come out.

Professional courtsey makes a better discusson and obtains a better result.

Since I have participated on this thread, a 30 days+, a month ago, NO material has been presented that would show that Mr. Burdak's material is inaccurate.

Have you or any one else got any evidence that shows the material presented by Mr Burdak is false. inaccurate, or fabricated?

Best regards

Ravi Chaudhary 20:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


Mr Chaudhary, you have still not answered why you are speaking on behalf of Mr Burdak. Some poster alluded to a gang while mentioning your references.

Just because no material has been posted does not prove that the imagery flowing out of your own imagination is factual.

You are, pardon my directness, just on and on about Jat, Jat and JAT.....hardly anything worthwhile about Shekhawati.

The references you cite are all from within your own group..circular references - no independant sources.

If you must post these, then please do so on websites dealing with political, social and economic matters - it just does not belong under Shekawati.

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