Talk:Ruhollah Khomeini/Archive 7

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The students did not have Khomeini's order to take hostages

Please, read here where it explains Khomeini telling the minister to kick the students out of the embassy.--69.232.64.245 (talk) 20:32, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Please read here where it explains Khomeini's strong endorsement of the hostage taking. (Same book, same page!!) This is a very important part of his career as politician both in Iran and abroad--BoogaLouie (talk) 22:53, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

"They did not have his order" means Khomeini did not order them. Although he later supported the act once he was notified. I urge you not to mix the two together.--Kazemita1 (talk) 05:56, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

problems with lead

The WP:lead should "serves both as an introduction to the article and as a summary of the important aspects of its subject." [4] Not cram in as many facts about Khomeini (that he wrote a book on poetry, that velayat-e faqih came from a series of lectures, how many months he was arrested for in 1963) in the article as you can. Consequently I'm going to trim it. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:21, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Current lead

Grand Ayatollah Sayyed Ruhollah Musavi Khomeini (Persian: روح‌اللّه مصطفوی موسوی خمینی, Persian pronunciation: [ruːholˈlɑːhe muːsæˈviːje xomeiˈniː], 24 September 1902 – 3 June 1989) was an Iranian religious leader and politician, and leader of the 1979 Iranian Revolution which saw the overthrow of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran. Following the revolution, Khomeini became the country's Supreme Leader—a position created in the constitution as the highest ranking political and religious authority of the nation—until his death.

Khomeini was a marja ("source of emulation", also known as a Grand Ayatollah) in Twelver Shi'a Islam. He is the author of more than 40 books mainly on mysticism, philosophy, and Islamic jurisprudence most of which were written before the revolution. After his death, a book of poetry was published under his name.

He was arrested in 1963 for 10 months and exiled in 1964 for near 15 years for his speeches against the Capitulation (treaty) approved by the Shah regime

In January 1970, during a series of lectures, Khomeini expanded the theory of velayat-e faqih, (clerical authority) to include theocratic political rule by the Islamic jurists,, though he never mentioned it in public until after the revolution . This principle was then installed in the new Iranian constitution and put to referendum.

Khomeini is criticized for his direct responsibility in 1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners. and his fatwa calling for the death of British citizen Sayyid Salman Rushdie.

He was named Man of the Year in 1979 by American newsmagazine TIME and is quoted as a person who escalated anti-Americanism in middle-east

Khomeini has been referred to as a "charismatic leader of immense popularity," considered a "champion of Islamic revival" by some Shia scholars and through this fatwa, was regarded as a "renewer of Islam" by non-Shi'a.

He is officially known as Imam Khomeini inside Iran and amongst his followers internationally, and Ayatollah Khomeini amongst others.

trimmed and balanced lead

Grand Ayatollah Sayyed Ruhollah Musavi Khomeini (Persian: روح‌اللّه مصطفوی موسوی خمینی, Persian pronunciation: [ruːholˈlɑːhe muːsæˈviːje xomeiˈniː], 24 September 1902 – 3 June 1989) was an Iranian religious leader and politician, and leader of the 1979 Iranian Revolution which saw the overthrow of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran. Following the revolution, Khomeini became the country's Supreme Leader — a position created in the constitution as the highest ranking political and religious authority of the nation — until his death.

Khomeini was a marja ("source of emulation", also known as a Grand Ayatollah) in Twelver Shi'a Islam, author of more than 40 books, but is most famous for his political role. He spent more than 15 years in exile for his opposition to the shah and in his writings and preachings he expanded the Shi'a Usuli theory of velayat-e faqih, the "guardianship of the jurisconsult (clerical authority)" to include theocratic political rule by the Islamic jurists. This principle (though not known to the wider public before the revolution ) was installed in the new Iranian constitution after being put to a referendum.

He was named Man of the Year in 1979 by American newsmagazine TIME and has been described as the "virtual face of Islam in Western popular culture," known for his support of the hostage takers during the Iranian hostage crisis and his fatwa calling for the death of British citizen Salman Rushdie.

Khomeini has been criticized for these acts and for human rights violations of Iranians (including his ordering of execution of thousands of political prisoners; but also lauded as a "charismatic leader of immense popularity", and a "champion of Islamic revival" by some Shia scholars.

Khomeini is officially known as Imam Khomeini inside Iran and by his supporters internationally, and generally refered to as Ayatollah Khomeini by others.

• Response to RfC (notified by RfC bot). The "trimmed and balanced lead" is better, though marginally. The lead is incredibly puffy. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:31, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

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Khadijeh Saqafi

This Wikipedia article says that when Khomeini married Khadijeh Saqafi, she was 16 years old. Other sources say that she was 10, 12 or 13 years old when she married Khomeini. This Wikipedia article says that Khomeini married Khadijeh Saqafi in 1929, but other sources (e.g., http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/world/middleeast/24saqafi.html) say that they married in 1931 or in in 1930. Quinacrine (talk) 05:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

There's a lot of wrong ideas in this

Someone who writes articles like this should have a clue about what he is writing about. And there is all kinds of views of dissenters everywhere, which much is just lie, and just supported by dissenter-written books.

About anything that looks human right violations, you should know everybody that was executed, was sentenced by a court, and was not for political reasons, but some for betraying the country, and some for killing innocent people(and he was politically completely powerful all the time, he didn't need it).

About the "Mystique" section, the Hadith is not of firm ones(i.e. even if right, it doesn't bring anything you can really count on whatsoever), and the word "unsparing" should be replaced with one that does not bear anything like "merciless"(as oxford dictionary says about "unsparing").

Also, in the next paragraph, Imam is an Arabic word and means Leader, and has been used throughout the Islam time for people who lead. Velayat-e-Faqih is a leader for when the Twelfth Imam is not present(with leading being what Imam does, everyone who leads the followers is considered his deputy). Every statement about his relationship with Twelfth Imam, or his intent to make people believe so, is wrong. As I've heard, once a skilled and popular Maddaah(Shia chanter), in the middle of his chanting, told him: "You're the Imam of the time(the twelfth), tell these people". Then Khomeini became angry and told him: "Shut up. Shut up. Get out. Get him out of here." .

In supporting this idea, there is a video in which, after some dissenter foreign medias spread a Hear Say for his death, Khomeini says: "They say some tiny big guy(Persian kiak: An epithet, meaning: someone who seems to be important, but not agreed with his being important) is dying, his legs are longish(he is resting in death bed), after his death this happens, and that happens. Are people with me? No, people are with Islam. If tomorrow I say something against Islam, this very people will be against me."--Lord'sServant (talk) 18:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The section "Appearance and habits", the sentences

"He is said to have had awe, and fear from those around him."

and

"His practice of moving through the halls of the madresehs never smiling at anybody or anything; his practice of ignoring his audience while he taught"

are just lies.

All these are just from the parts I've read, and (most probably) are not the whole problem with this article.--Lord'sServant (talk) 21:01, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Reference 43

Reference 43 links a hate site. I just don't think it is a viable reference for Wikipedia as it is extremely bias to link a hate site and use it as a reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.236.251.84 (talk) 08:32, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Request

Please restore the sourced information I added to this page, a user with several IP adresses keeps removing it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ruhollah_Khomeini&oldid=497778766

MATF55 (talk) 15:35, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. Per the box at the top of the article:

This page is currently protected from editing until June 23, 2012 or until disputes have been resolved.
This protection is not an endorsement of the current version. ... Please discuss any changes on the talk page; you may use the {{editprotected}} template to ask an administrator to make the edit if it is supported by consensus.

Therefore, you should discuss these changes and obtain consensus before using {{editprotected}}. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:46, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Martyrdom comment

Khomeini is reportedly the originator of the idea that martyrs killed for the cause of Islam go immediately to Paradise to be served forever by the Houri of Persian folklore. The tragedy is that thousands of Muslims have gone to their deaths based on expectations not supported by the Qur'an. The article should deal with Khomeini's ideas on the subject of martyrdom.96.239.129.113 (talk) 21:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Age should be corrected

I think there is a mistake about the age of the subject of this article.

It is stated the subjects date of birth is 22 September 1902. If the date of death was, as stated, 3 June 1989, the subject's age can't be greater than 86 years. On the right column, containing personal information summary, the subject's age is stated as 88 years old (incorrect).

Regards

Comment added on Nov 20, 2012

--200.93.118.9 (talk) 06:08, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Age should be corrected

I think there is a mistake about the age of the subject of this article.

It is stated the subjects date of birth is 22 September 1902. If the date of death was, as stated, 3 June 1989, the subject's age can't be greater than 86 years. On the right column, containing personal information summary, the subject's age is stated as 88 years old (incorrect).

Regards

--200.93.118.9 (talk) 06:09, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Hostage Crisis

'In Iran, supporters of Khomeini named the embassy a "Den of Espionage"' - That depicts a totally wrong image of that time. Supporters were in no position to declare something liek that - rather the sentence "The US embassy is a center of espionage of our enemies against the sacred islamic movement."[1] was uttered on December 7th 1979 by Chomeini himself and sanctioned the hostage taking as a good and necessairy move.

[1] Naumann Michael / Joffe, Josef: Teheran, Eine Revolution wird hingerichtet. München 1980, page 218. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.229.209.243 (talk) 11:43, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Economy

To not mention U.S. and U.N. sanctions against Iran after 1979 in the "Emigration and Economy" section is intellectually dishonest. The section reads like anti-Khomeini propaganda right now. Someone should write about the sanctions. I will do so, if need be. Starvinsky (talk) 18:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Role in revolution before Shariati's death

I think it is inaccurate to suggest that "Khomeini became the most influential leader of the opposition" "[a]fter the 1977 death of Dr. Ali Shariati". This suggests that Khomeini was of secondary importance until Shariati deceased. Shariati played an important role in popularizing the Islamic revival among young educated Iranians, as the paper correctly highlights. Yet, he was influenced by (and in many cases following the lead of) Khomeini. According to the widely read and referenced biography of Shariati by Ali Rahnema (1998), , as early as 1963 Shariati admired and affectionately supported the cause of Khomeini and his followers: "Shariati was delighted at the astuteness of the people when he heard that one of the slogans chanted by the people during the days of uprising was 'Mosaddeq our national leader and Khomeini our religious leader'. Given his belief in the Iranian-Islamic heritage, Shariati had no misgivings in combining the stature of Mosaddeq as the nationalist leader of the movement with that of Khomeini as the religious leader [of the movement]." (p. 113) If Rahnema's report is correct, it also suggests that Khomeini was considered as the prominent (religious) leader of revolution as early as 1963. I think the accuracy and factuality of paper will be improved if the sentence is changed to: By 1977, Khomeini had become the most influential leader of the opposition to the Shah.

I think I may have written that sentence. My idea was not imply that Khomieni was #2 until Shariati's death, but that Shariati was very influential and after he died Khomieni had no rival. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:36, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Use the name "Ayatollah Khomeini" in the lead section

Can I suggest that in accordance with Wikipedia:Article titles#treatment_of_alternative_names, the first sentence of the lead section includes the alternative name Ayatollah Khomeini, which was the name which he was popularly known in the West during his life? I suspect many readers of English Wikipedia only know him by this name and may be confused by its absence from the article title and lead section. (I am not suggesting changing the article title.)--MrStoofer (talk) 13:44, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Leader of the revolution

Question: was Khomeini considered the paramount leader of the revolution as has been asserted in this and other articles, or was he considered as one of the leaders of the revolution? Can this issue be clarified, because based on what I've been reading, the opposition groups such as the National Front and Tudeh Party consider him as one of the principal leaders rather than the sole, supreme leader. Leftist sources such as the Tudeh Party, World Socialist Web Site and others also have disputed the revolution had been originally Islamic in character. There also seems to be some contradictions on this issue between the different related articles. Sigilian (talk) 16:40, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Some evidence of the devotion Iranians had for "the Imam"

• some months before the revolution. after rumour sweeps the country that the Imam's face will appear in the moon on this night ... "Tears of joy were shed and huge quantities of sweets and fruits were consumed as millions of people jumped for joy, shouting `I've seen the Imam in the moon.` The event was celebrated in thousands of mosques with mullahs reminding the faithful that a sure sign of the coming of the Mahdi was that the sun would rise in the West. Khomeini, representing he sun, was now in France [West of Iran] and his face was shining in the moon like a sun. People were ready to swear on the Qur'an that they had seen Khomeini's face in the moon. Even the Tudeh Party [the party of "Scientific Socialism"] shared in the collective hallucination. Its paper Navid wrote: `Our toiling masses, fighting against world-devouring imperialism headed by the blood-sucking United States, have seen the face of their beloved Imam and leader, Khomeini the Breaker of Idols, in the moon. A few pipsqueaks cannot deny what a whole nation has seen with its own eyes.`" [source: Navid n.28][Taheri, The Spirit of Allah, p.238]
• "The Imam, it was generally believed, had shown by his uncanny sweep to power, that he knew how to act in ways which others could not begin to understand. His timing was extraordinary, and his insight into the motivation of others, those around him as well as his enemies, could not be explained as ordinary knowledge. This emergent belief in Khomeini as a divinely guided figure was carefully fostered by the clerics who supported him and spoke up for him in front of the people. They were always careful that their words should not exceed proper theological bounds, but they were also careful not to state explicitly the nature of his power and knowledge. In this they followed Khomeini himself." (from Khomeini: Life of the Ayatollah, by Baqer Moin p.297)
• the BBC estimates that up to 5 million people came out in the streets to welcome him home from exile.
• On his death in 1989 some thought his funeral might be underattended out of popular discontent. There had been economic problems, and hundreds of thousands had died in the war against Iraq -- most of which was spent in an unsuccessful effort to defeat and overthrow the Iraqi government. However the funeral witnessed several million "in a completely spontaneous and unorchestrated outpouring of grief." Body is taken by helicopter to the graveyard. There the crowd takes control of it as soon as the helicopter landed. Its white shroud is torn to pieces and taken by the mourners as holy relics.

Eventually the body's recovered and placed in an ambulance to be taken back to the helicopter, but even as the helicopter tried to leave the mourners clung on, preventing it from taking off. Finally the body's taken to north Tehran to go through the shrouding ritual once again." This time Khomeini's body is sealed in a metal container. Crowds once again break through the Revolutionary Guard security cordons but body is buried in grave facing Mecca. 10,000 injured, dozens killed in the chaos. (from Khomeini: Life of the Ayatollah, by Baqer Moin p.312-13) --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:01, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

You may wonder if devotion is the same as political loyalty, but bear in mind Khomeini's core political belief was that Islam was not complete unless an Islamic cleric ruled. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:13, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Links

>> Ayatollah Khomeini: A rare encounter with a true revolutionary (Lihaas (talk) 14:36, 3 February 2014 (UTC)).

Article needs to be reviewed by an expert

This article has been edited too many times by people with no knowledge of Ayatollah Khomeini or people who aim to vandalize the article. As a result there is some flaky information here, every time I read this article I find new errors inaccuracy's pertaining to him or his beliefs and activities. An expert needs to go through this article and filter out all inaccurate info, vandalism, and such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hooperag (talk • contribs) 00:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Bad state

This article is in really bad state, someone mangled the code. I don't have time to fix it :(

Separation of Mosque and state

There is a quotation of Khomeini that: "Those intellectuals who say that the clergy should leave politics and go back to the Mosque are speaking in behalf of Satan". Can someone elaborate and find out where exactly this quotation is coming from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.178.203.146 (talk) 22:51, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Morteza Pasandideh, the brother with the different last name

This article mentions Morteza Pasandideh yet fails to explain why he carries a different name than his brother.

Here's the reason:

Khumeini's real name is Roozba Pasandideh, his father Sinka was born in South India as a Hindu and his mother was a high priestess in Hindu Temple in Kashmir.

Sinka migrated to the town of Khumein. As a poor man, he observed a man wearing a turban who followed Musawism (Musawi, not Musavi) and noticed that poor people were giving offerings to that man despite their grave poverty. This caused him to abandon Hinduism and embrace Shia and serve the turban bearing man 'till the day he died.

While in his service, Sinka changed his name to Ahmed Khadim Al Musawi (In Arabic that translates literally to Ahmed, Servant of the Musawi).

Khumeini's brother refused to change his name and insisted that he keeps his family name Pasandideh, whilst Khumeini, like his father, changed it to Musawi.

In his early life, Khumeini wrote all his letters by hand and mentioned his Indian origin and even signed in Indian Calligraphy. Suddenly, his name changed to Musawi and his turban turned black.

Since his brother refused changing his name, he was imprisoned by Khumeini and forbidden to appear in public until the day he was killed.

The First Hindu to rule Iran with an iron fist and enslave Shia. Under the name of religion he robbed them of their riches and "enjoyed their women". (that concept still exists in Shia Religion today and is a special right for religious leaders only).

Many Shia still believe that Khumeini is s decendant of prophet Mohammed due to the propaganda campaigns that the Khumeini tried to prove through them that he was a "Sayed" (a direct descendant of the prophet).

Khumeini added his ancestral logo on the Iranian flag and convinced his followers that it was the name of God (Allah).

Khumeini's father worked as an informant to the British Occupation at the time. He was fiercely intelligent and loyal to his employers.

Sinka was rewarded for his loyalty by being assigned a royal horse master in the Shah's castle at the time. Later on Riza Bahlawi had a dispute with him and killed Sinka in rage.

This incident caused Khumeini to flee Iran to Iraq and plot his revenge on Riza. and when British and US Intelligence took note of this, they invited him to France.

In the mean time, the Shah started becoming a threat to the British Occupation's interests in Iran, as well as US oil companies, this is where they decided to overthrow him, and who better than Khumeini who was already motivated by revenge. And so, he was made a hero of the people.. and the rest is history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.184.189.4 (talk) 07:50, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

If you have a WP:reliable source for this .... stuff you can put it on the British–Ruhollah Khomeini conspiracy theory article --BoogaLouie (talk) 14:05, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

This article is nothing other than an official propaganda

First: Khomeini's hypocrisy which has been mentioned by many sources is mostly denied or forgotten.

Second: Khomeini's direct involvement in massive massacres and human rights violations has not been explicitly described and documented.

Third: Unnecessary details causes spontaneous information about the critical facts to be lost and missed.

Fourth(and the most important one): The lead of the article says almost nothing other than what you can hear from Iran government and intentionally skips the few critiques and facts that has survived from their agents' edits.

After reviewing this article's history I have found the cause: Obviously there exists a sophisticated and organized continuous attempt, participated by a few contributors to freeze the article in this state. Someone should do something about this phenomenon. This is a shame for WP to include such a page in it. IRVoice (talk) 10:14, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Ayatollah Khomeini, who is that?

When Ayatollah Khomeini is first mentioned in this article (in the third paragraph of the lead section), those don't knowing who that is might wonder if he is related to Ruhollah Khomeini. And when a Khomeini is mentioned in the subsequent text, they might wonder if it refers to Ruhollah Khomeini or Ayatollah Khomeini.

It isn't until the fifth paragraph we are told that Grand Ayatollah is a title and that Ruhollah Khomeini is generally referred to as Ayatollah Khomeini except by his followers and inside Iran.

How Khomeini is most commonly referred to in English is basic information which should be given as early as possible in the article. If it can't be accommodated in the first or second sentence, I think it should be mentioned no later than the beginning of the second paragraph (presuming the first paragraph isn't too long). In any case, the title Ayatollah needs to be introduced no later than the first time it's used to refer to Khomeini. --83.255.55.91 (talk) 16:31, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Adding the title Ayatollah as the first word of the article before the name was certainly an improvement, even though it perhaps isn't ideal according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies. --83.255.55.91 (talk) 07:53, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Name confusion

I think some people might get Khomeini confused with Khamenei, the current leader of Iran. There should be a sentence in italics above this article that says "Not to be confused with Ali Khamenei" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.194.3.117 (talk) 17:47, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Intro compression

Shall we make the introduction shorter?--88.111.129.157 (talk) 19:39, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Obscuring an important historic fact

Khomeini returned to Iran in an Air France plane. The current article not only (conveniently) uses a cropped version of the original picture, but the correction of this omission has been reverted. This is not a minor historic point if we recall that Lenin returned to Russia in a sealed German train...

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/rkhomeini/images/khomeini_arrives1.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:A:3982:7147:3444:828:FCA4:32D5 (talk) 13:07, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

1) Lenin's train (or the passenger wagon he was travelling in) was not sealed at all, that's just a catchphrase. He had promised the German diplomats that his group would not try to make contact with anyone outside of the railway car, but that was it. There was nothing to physically stop them from attempting or, for example, speaking from out of a compartment window at a station.

2) Khomeini had been living in Paris for a year or two before it became possible for him to return to Iran. The French were likely more than happy to get rid of him on their own soil, he was an obvious security risk by living there. That's it. There was no connivance, least of all against the USA if that's the buried bone you are suggesting. 83.254.154.164 (talk) 21:32, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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the term 'will'

In the infobox, next to the years of their marriage, it states the marriage ended in 'will. 1989' (the year of his death. This is terminology I've never seen before, and it's not explained. I would've thought the end would be 'his death - 1989' to maintain consistency across pages e.g. as it is on Ronald Reagan. If I'm missing a trick, please let me know, otherwise I'll change it to something more understandable.Rayman60 (talk) 01:02, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Rayman60: Like you, I've never seen the abbreviation used anywhere else. Having tracked down the edit where the confusing term first appeared in the infobox [5] (over four years ago!), I think it was a Persian editor's garbled attempt to clarify that these were supposed to be the start and end dates of the marriage, as opposed to the birthdate and deathdate of the spouse. So I've gone ahead and standardized the presentation using the {{marriage}} template. Thanks for pointing it out! AtticusX (talk) 08:48, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Unsourced material/word salad/irrelevant additions by user Dolly Cao

@Dolly Cao:, This revision as reverted to unfortunately contains total nonsense, as well as plain irrelevant material. Not only is the lede now much (like 2x) longer and completely unreadable, the article in general now also includes unsourced bogus. As a start, nowhere in the source in this section is it stated that there is an assumption that Khomeini might be of Kashmiri origin. This is 100% source falsification (the link only states "according to a statement of Khomeini's elder brother, Seyed Morteza Pasandideh, his point of departure was Kashmir, not Lucknow"). And thats all just the tip of the iceberg regarding the masses of unsuited changes. Objectively seen, its a much worse revision as compared to the current one we have. - LouisAragon (talk) 06:41, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

You lied when you claimed facts sourced to reliable sources like NYTimes, such as "In 1982, there was an attempted military coup against Khomeini. [6]" were unsourced [7].--Dolly Cao (talk) 02:50, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

pronunciation

The pronunciation in the sound file is different from what's indicated in IPA: [ruːholˈlɑːhe χomeiˈniː] . The sound file doesn't have e at the end of Ruhollah. Apparently the IPA should be [ruːholˈlɑːh χomeiˈniː]. --Espoo (talk) 10:34, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

The -e is an ezāfe, a particle which can be had or not. Of course something should be done to avoid the confusion in this and similar articles. 83.248.231.116 (talk) 01:08, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Philosopher

Is it correct to describe him as a philosopher if he never attempted the pursuit of truth, either objectively or by some form of natural law? Suggesting removing the term from the introductory paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.23.32.224 (talk) 15:37, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Influence

The "Influence" section near the end reads like it was not written by a native English speaker and could use some cleanup. —howcheng {chat} 18:19, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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• CHOMEINI.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:06, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Sharia and Islamic law

@Britmax: I see your point. Yes, this is something that is hard to tell in several articles. Basically, Sharia is a legal-opinion based on the Islamic tradition itself, can be modified by Fiqh. Further there is Qanun (jurispudence under the Ottoman Sultanate). I would regard any traditional law as "sharia" here. Unfortunetaly, the "Sharia" article seems to need an overall edit, too. And there are other articles I am not sure how to solve the disamiguation. But, since the former redirect linked to Sharia anyway, it seems "Islamic law" is mostly used synonymously with "Sahria" in the most Articles. But if you disagree, we can leave it as "Islamic law". Maybe we should make "Islamic law" not a disambiguation but an article stating that every law-system based on Islamic culture is called "Islamic law" and when showing the distincition between Sharia (traditionalistic), Fiqh and Qanun?--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:01, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to fail. the new article remain.Saff V. (talk) 06:47, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

---

@Rosguill: plz provide reasons to merge?

• Comment: Ruhollah Khomeini's article is too long and it is necessary to be shortened. In addition, Ruhollah Khomeini's life in exile is extremely notable and supported by RS used in the article.I believe that none of four reasons is not true for this.Saff V. (talk) 14:24, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

@Saff V.: it seems like a case of overlap to me, and this article already has a fairly detailed discussion of Ruhollah Khomeini's exile–I was under the impression that merging the articles would only add a few paragraphs of length here, and would avoid creating a fork and having two separately maintained accounts of Khomeini's exile. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:46, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

There is no overlap or creating fork, in fact, the part of life in exile in Ruhollah Khomeini article is split into a new one, the Ruhollah Khomeini's life in exile. If you think that some material is same, (according to Splitting) you can move them into the new article and make that one shorter.Saff V. (talk) 06:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion

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New sanctions

Trump has announced new sanctions against him. [8]--Auric talk 18:06, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Nobody:

America: places sanctions on a man who died in 1989

Cinefan Cinefan (talk) 18:14, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Anti-communism category

Albeit I did add Adolf Hitler and Margaret Thatcher to this category, since then I've realized that I don't really think specific people should be added to this category. Yes, they were staunchly anti-communist, but maybe something like Critics of Marxism could better fit? Cinefan Cinefan (talk) 16:29, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Staunch anti-communists seem to be most closely connected to the Anti-communism cat. I think the more nuanced Critics of Marxism is less relevant — a bit too scholarly and not mainstream enough. El_C 18:22, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Pov issue

@Stefka Bulgaria: the edit include the pov issue and undue weight problem. while it was mentioned that "Revolutionary Tribunals" had been the part of campaign to cleanse the society in this source, or in another source it was brought that Khomeini retorted that they were accused but were in factguilty, Abrahamian described that the aim of creation of the "Revolutionary Tribunals" was to continue implementing their version of the Shari’a, which is just pov of him and gives undue weight to article, because some sources (as I gathered) are opposite of it. Saff V. (talk) 12:04, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I just included a quote from a reliable source and author (Ervand Abrahamian is an Iranian historian). I think the statement is perfectly valid. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:57, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@Stefka Bulgaria: Not only I did not say anything about the reliability of Abrahamian source, but also I am going to point to wp:due which demand that Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints (based on their weight) that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. As I brought material from other sources, there are various viewpoints about "Revolutionary Tribunals" but you just mentioned Abrahamian's idea.Saff V. (talk) 06:51, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

@Saff V., if you've found material from other sources, just add them to the article. As long as they meet WP:RS, then they will be ok for inclusion. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 17:21, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

what is the relation

@HistoryofIran: Please read carefully the edit summary, I did not say anything about the reliability of the source. I did not see any relation between 16 executions for crimes related to sexual violations and Khomeini? I wonder if you could explain it.Saff V. (talk) 13:40, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

I very well read your summary, and I never implied that you questioned the reliability of the source. They are clearly related as they have something to do with his reforms. Look, I'm not here to constantly hold your hand and explain things to you - WP:COMPETENCE, I've lost count of how many times I've linked this to you. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:43, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: I need your insight here, recently new section titled Homosexuality has been created in the article, but there is some material has nothing to do with the Homosexuality , for instance, these courts executed over 100 drug addicts, prostitutes, homosexuals, rapists, and adulterers on the charge of "sowing corruption on earth or In February and March of 1979, there were 16 executions for crimes related to sexual violations. It is the first issue with that.

• Secondly, the source of these two claims Soon after the 1979 revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini established the death penalty for homosexuality. In February and March of 1979, there were 16 executions for crimes related to sexual violations is this book that the author referred the claim to another book. It is more interesting that in the footnote 31 of the later book, p.292 , the author has used email exchanges as a source of information! Can we rely on this and include material with such an unreliable source? Thanks!Saff V. (talk) 07:05, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

There is also a good New York Times source that includes a direct interview with Khomeini that we can include in this section. I will try to include it later today. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:21, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

There is any thing about the death penalty for homosexuality ordered by Khomeini in the interview published by New York Times. Please be more careful! In other hand the interview was recorded on 12 September 1979, how can this so close source to the event support the death penalty for homosexuality? Saff V. (talk) 09:42, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

The section is not only about the death penalty for homosexuality, but homosexuality as a whole under Khomeini's rule. Please stop asking me to "be more careful" for adding reliable sources to the article. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:52, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff, your POV is showing (again), please consider your words more carefully and stop causing something out of nothing, it's getting rather boring at this rate. This looks a big case of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT as well. This is what occured under Khomeiminis leadership, whether you like it or not. Last but not least, you have been told by various users in the Reliable noticeboard that the source is reliable, end off. HistoryofIran (talk)

@Saff V.: History books are always written based on less reliable primary information. The reliability derives not from the original source, but from the author's responsibility to verify it, and from the publisher's repsonsibility to fact-check what they are publishing. As such, I see no reason to discount this source, unless another equally weighty source has challenged that assertion. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:07, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: thanks for comment but how about the source of this two claims exactly, it is the email clearly.Saff V. (talk) 15:14, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Well, if the author says that in their own voice, it's reliable; if it's contentious it may require in-text attribution at the most. If the author is saying "an email said" that might be different. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:40, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: Can You look at this, It is not the author's voice. Isn't it?Saff V. (talk) 14:46, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

No, that's not in the author's voice. The use of that quote as a source would depend on the reliability of the footnote for it. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:Thanks for the comment, The footnote is "Afary, Janet and Anderson, Kevin: Foucault and the Iranian Revolution: Gender and the Seductions of Islam. Chicago 2005, p. 161". At that book the footnote for these two claims is "Some of this information is based on an e-mail exchange with Goudarz Eghtedari (Iran). For a discussion of this issue, see Sanasarian 2000 and various issues of the journal Homan (1999–2001). For more information on the Iranian GLB movement, see the website for Homan: The Group to Defend the Rights of Iranian Gays and Lesbians, www.homan.cwc.net. For literature on Iranian lesbians, see www.geocities.com/khanaeyedoost. According to Duran, “homosexual assault is frequently used by the police of repressive regimes, such as the SAVAK during the reign of the Shah of Iran or its successor, SAVAMA, the dreaded security organ of the Khomeini government” (1993, 187)."Saff V. (talk) 15:59, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Well, that second source (Afary et al) looks quite reliable to me. That should be the one that is used. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:06, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff V. also forgot to mention that he took this to WP:RSN already where he was told repeatedly the source was reliable. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 16:09, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:sorry to bother you by various pinging, but in Afra authors mentioned in the footnote that "Some of this information is based on an e-mail exchange with Goudarz Eghtedari (Iran)."at least doesn’t it need attribution?Saff V. (talk) 16:12, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The authors don't seem to be reporting it, they seem to be saying it in their own voice. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:20, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

It is just law not order of Khomeini

As to law of the marriage age, I am going to say, there is a lot of decisions which were made in Khomeini's time, but Khomeini's article in Wikipedia is not true place to mention them. Is it? In other words, it is an article (1, 2, 3 ) proved when Khomeini was the leader and he did not play a serious role to make them. It is an article of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran which was adopted by referendum on 2 and 3 December 1979.Saff V. (talk) 08:25, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

His actions, which should be mentioned in his article. End off. --HistoryofIran (talk) 08:32, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Please do not end sentences with the infantile "end of" (sic) or for that matter "period" here. A discussion is not over because you stamp your foot and say it is. Britmax (talk) 09:12, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read what's been going on this article and others. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:13, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

It is just his thought, not action!Saff V. (talk) 08:57, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Tahrir al-Wasilah

@Winged Blades of Godric: you called this section as a TRASH.Do you agree with moving the following material of the section to Tahrir al-Wasilah? How about removing?

• In his book, Tahrirolvasyleh, Khomeini wrote about his views on sex, "specifically sex with a nine-year-old child and how much to pay or not to pay for damaging the child’s vagina, or whether to marry or not to marry her as a ‘Siqueh’ (a temporary wedding)." Khomeini said in an official statement that “A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by Sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. The girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives…. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband’s house rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.” In a different statement, Khomeini said that “it is not illegal for an adult male to ‘thigh’ or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of waning." Saff V. (talk) 13:20, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

  Saff V., I have rewritten the section in entirety. ∯WBG^converse 13:30, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

  More high quality sources over here, here and here. ∯WBG^converse 13:59, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Khomeini's wife

I've found several sources that say Khomeini's wife was "Batul Saqafi, a ten year old daughter of an ayatollah." This seems to contradict with what's currently in the article. Any insights on this? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 13:43, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

References

@Stefka Bulgaria: Should deffo be added somewhere, also see this btw [9] --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

There is not anything about Batul Saqafi in the provided source. As wp:UNDUE demanded, "Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all". A plenty of sources confirmed his only wife was Khadije Sqafi.Saff V. (talk) 15:26, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff, they have the same last names - they're the same person. Khadijeh Saqafi was known by more than one name. She was indeed his only wife, which means that the 10 year old girl was her, which the other source also confirms. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:35, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

The more I read about Khomeini, the more I'm finding the article is missing a lot of significant information. Will start to add some of it, but feel free to comment if I've gotten something wrong. Thanks Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 17:37, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I propose the following text based on the available sources:

• Some sources claim that Khomeini married Sagafi when she was ten years old, while others claim she was fifteen years old.

Objections? (@Winged Blades of Godric:?) Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:42, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

References

Decision which they were made at Khomeini’s time

The source belongs to a self-publishing company and not an expert author was used by Stefka who concern using self-publishing source. Anyway, the current text which is Under Khomeini's age of marriage turns to nine years old for girls, and down to fifteen years old for boys. I am going to say, there is a lot of decisions which were made in Khomeini's time, but Khomeini's article in Wikipedia is not true place to mention them. Is it?In other words, it is an article (1, 2, 3 ) proved when Khomeini was the leader and he did not play serious role to make them. @Vanamonde93: can you give your opinion?Saff V. (talk) 19:07, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff V., I provided a number of sources that back up these statements, not just that one. You should have just removed the source you had an issue with, and not the other well-sourced material that you removed from the article. About adding more context to Khoemini's decision-making in the matter, Vanamonde93 already gave you a final warning about removing text just because you think it's missing information: "If the completeness of the material was an issue, the appropriate response is to add the missing information. If the reliability of a source is an issue, the correct response is to replace it, or at the very least, to request a better citation via a tag." Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 19:39, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff V., you also removed this " source from the article, which clearly supports the statement you removed in your following edit ("marrying a girl before she begins menstruation was a “divine blessing.”"). Why? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 19:50, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

@Stefka, Can you say what is the source of these material? One of Khomeini's first acts when he took power was to lower the age of marriage from eighteen to nine years old for girls, and down to fifteen years old for boys. Khomeini told the Muslim faithful that marrying a girl before she begins menstruation was a “divine blessing.” “Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house.” You have to pick up self-published source and material belongs to it. As well as I look at this source and could not find anything to supportadded material by Stefka. It's better to provide the material of the mentioned book to support his edit . Please don't warn me to remove RS from the article while the source of this sentence {tq| One of Khomeini's first acts when he took power was to lower the age of marriage from eighteen to nine years old for girls, and down to fifteen years old for boys}} which you reverted is self published source.Saff V. (talk) 19:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• Okay, dial it back immediately, both of you; mudslinging here isn't the way to resolve this. Stefka, regardless of what Saff V. has done, using an SPS isn't okay; people have been tbanned for it. The burden of ensuring the reliability of a source you use is on you. The other source isn't necessarily unreliable; but I don't have access to the source. Stefka, can you provide a quote? Vanamonde (Talk) 20:11, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:, let me know if you can access these references (which were all included in the article):

• "One of Khomeini's first acts when he took power was to lower the age of marriage from eighteen to nine years old for girls, and down to fifteen years old for boy":

"Under Khomeini, child marriage was allowed once more, with the age of marriage being reduced from 18 to nine for girls (revised, after protests, to 13) and 15 for boys. New laws encourage polygamy and prevented women from leaving abusive husbands. The husband’s right of unilateral divorce was reinstated. New policies encouraged temporary marriage as ‘morally sanctioned substitute for Western dating’, with trial ‘sigheh’ marriages recommended for high-school students, and sex workers being invited to enter short-term marriage contracts with returning war veterans"

I.B.Tauris

• "Khomeini told the Muslim faithful that marrying a girl before she begins menstruation was a “divine blessing.”:

"In many of his works Khomeini himself strongly recommends pre-menstruation marriage as "a divine blessing." "Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house," he write in Tawzih al-Masayel"

Adler & Adler Pub

• "Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house.":

"Khomeini called marriage to a girl before her first menstrual period "a divine blessing," and he advised the faithful: "Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house."

Encounter Books

Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 20:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

But this source was not used at this revert. As well as the reliability of source belongs to Encounter Books which known for publishing conservative authors should be checked. In addition, the second quote belongs to page 35, not 34!Saff V. (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I'll just keep to the point in the hopes of avoiding the usual confusing bludgeoning: Saff V. removed the following from the article:

• "One of Khomeini's first acts when he took power was to lower the age of marriage from eighteen to nine years old for girls, and down to fifteen years old for boys."
• "Khomeini told the Muslim faithful that marrying a girl before she begins menstruation was a “divine blessing.”
• "“Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house.”"

As I showed in my previous edit, all these statements were backed by RSs. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 21:39, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• As far as I can see, the sources provided here on the talk page are adequate for the content they were used for, although that tidbit about the age of marriage being raised after protest should be included for neutrality. Stefka Bulgaria, these are the sources you should have provided at the outset. The Xulon source isn't acceptable, and further use of such sources may be grounds for sanction. Saff V., can you explain why, in this diff, you claim to be removing content cited to an SPS, even though you are also removing additional information at the same time? Vanamonde (Talk) 02:40, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: Doesn't this and this diff show that I did add these sources at the outset? I also removed the Xulon source once I saw it was self-published. Having said that, I'll be more careful with checking for self-published sources.Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:01, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:, In this diff I just pikced up this material "One of Khomeini's first acts when he took power "/Khomeini told the Muslim faithful that marrying a girl before she begins menstruation was a “divine blessing.” “Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house.” backed by SPS.

Stefka reverted my edit while this statment "One of Khomeini's first acts when he took power" does not support with any of provided sources!Saff V. (talk) 06:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

How about the use of goodreads as source into the article?!Saff V. (talk) 07:38, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff V., that's not good enough. You removed two pieces of content in this diff. One of them had other sources supporting it, and the SPS wasn't even used for that content. Do that again, and you are looking at a page ban, at the very least. Both of you: I am absolutely sick of the whataboutism in this thread. Another editor's mistakes are no excuse for your own; and trying to use them as such is an indication that you shouldn't be editing such a contentious topic. I am very close to giving both of you a page ban just for that behavior, and I will be monitoring this discussion to see that it doesn't get off the rails again. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:25, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93:I didn't deliberately remove this source material. I was checking this edit. But I didn't realize another source was added. I am sorry and I know I have to be more careful. In another hand, you say about stefka's edits that The other source isn't necessarily unreliable; but Amir Taheri's work is self-published.Saff V. (talk) 07:22, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Unrelated and Duplicated Material

There is some material has nothing to do with the article:

• There is no relation between Homosexuality and these courts executed over 100 drug addicts, prostitutes, homosexuals, rapists, and adulterers on the charge of "sowing corruption on earth" while the section is included Soon after the 1979 revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini established the death penalty for homosexuality OR Ayatollah Khomeini affirmed in 1979 that the execution of homosexuals (as well as prostitutes and adulterers) was justified in a moral society as the amputation of the gangrenous flesh.
• Does anyone can explain to me what has nothing to do this sentence In February and March of 1979, there were 16 executions for crimes related to sexual violations with Khomeini?
• As well as this sentence According to Robert Spencer, "this practice continues to this day, despite the severe injuries girls often incur from early intercourse and childbirth.", Are we allowed to bring all of the effects of laws that were made at Khomeini's time?Saff V. (talk) 07:22, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

I think "Khomeini then created the "Revolutionary Tribunals". According to historian Ervand Abrahamian, Khomeini encouraged the clerical courts to continue implementing their version of the Shari’a. As part of the campaign to "cleanse" the society[156], these courts executed over 100 drug addicts, prostitutes, homosexuals, rapists, and adulterers on the charge of "sowing corruption on earth."[157]" does not fit into that subsection and would better be moved to another suitable place. --Mhhossein ^talk 09:00, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Don't sources specifically say that this pertains to Khomeini's orders once he took power? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:45, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Not only does he not say anything about source's support, but he also says it should move to a more relevant section. Please do not divert the discussion.Saff V. (talk) 09:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Saff V., this is what the source says: "Soon after coming to power in 1979, Ayatollah Khomeini established the death penalty for homosexuality. In February and March 1979 there were sixteen executions for crimes related to sexual violations". In other words, this is clearly related to Khomeini. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 08:36, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Opting out

My intentions in this article have always been to add content that it didn't have. In the process of doing this, I have been (I feel, unjustly) associated with something I didn't want to be associated with. For that reason I won't be editing this article further. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:38, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Disputed edit by Stefka

The content which was added during in this edit doesn't support by the source. It is disputed. Please see this discussion: Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request/Archive_79#Ruhollah_Khomeini. @Vanamonde93: Can I removed it?Saff V. (talk) 11:00, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

I know I just said above this section that I'm opting out, but just to show that I didn't make this up, the following quote is on page 90 of the source: "As Ayatollah Khomeini famously affirmed in 1979, the execution of prostitutes, adulterers, and homosexuals was as justified in a moral society as the amputation of gangrious flesh." page 90. Unless another of my previous edits needs my feedback, I won't be participating further in this TP. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 11:08, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Why did you refer to page 145? Also, I am going to point to close paraphrasing at this edit. Saff V. (talk) 11:11, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Fixed --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:24, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Copy right violation

@Diannaa: I have founded some copy right issue in the article such as:

• this material Soon after the 1979 revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini established the death penalty for homosexuality. In February and March of 1979, there were 16 executions for crimes related to sexual violations. which was inserted during this edit is copied from this source.
• Another one, this Khomeini defined transsexuality as a disease that can be healed by means of an operation is copied from this source in this edits (1, 2).
• And close paraphrasing at this edit from this source.

I wonder if you check the article because it can be included some other copyright violations that I didn't see them. Thanks.Saff V. (talk) 12:18, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Hiya @Diannaa:, if you let me, I'll gladly rewrite those copyright issues. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:28, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Please go ahead and do so. I've removed the ones mentioned above and am done for now. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 12:29, 4 November 2019 (UTC)