Talk:Buildings of Jesus College, Oxford/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Drive-by comment

This is an excellent article. The one line that made me pause:

"as well as attracting Jesus College graduates of the University of Wales who wished to continue their research at Oxford".

Is that, Jesus College alumni who'd gone on to Wales and wanted to come back? Or was there some special arrangement with Welsh universities? Or is the sentence supposed to be "attracting to Jesus College graduates of the University of Wales"? I'm sure it must be the former, but it could be a little clearer. Good luck with the GA. Gonzonoir (talk) 19:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

You're right, it is unclear, because "to" is missing (your second choice!) Bencherlite ^Talk 19:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Buildings of Jesus College, Oxford/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Starting review.Pyrotec (talk) 14:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Initial view

This certainly appears to be a GA-status article, possibly an FA-status article but the outcome of this review will only be a GA. Its going to take me at least another day to read it in summary and then in detail; but it's likely to pass - soon rather than later. As it is big, it will be done in "bits"; I'm not going to try to do this in one big bite. Pyrotec (talk) 16:25, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Completely understood; no rush. Bencherlite ^Talk 20:56, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

You may be interested in these comments about the article on my talk-page and my reply; it may save you some typing! Bencherlite ^Talk 22:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

To update my reply:

George Hedgeland now has an article - it turns out he designed the west window of Norwich Cathedral, so clearly passes WP:N.
I've played around with mentions of the English civil war, expanding on first mention about the chaos it caused the college in financial and administrative terms, then just mentioning it in passing second time.
I've provided references after individual sentences for the instances that Rodw noted where tighter citation was needed.
I've shifted all inflation figures into a separate notes section, to improve readability.

Copy-editing is an on-going process, but I may be too close to the wood to see the trees! Bencherlite ^Talk 02:12, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

A wide-ranging, very well referenced article. Possibly FA-class.

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality:

B. MoS compliance:
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources:

B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

I'm passing this article, basically as it is. This is more of an FA-class article than a GA-class.Pyrotec (talk) 19:52, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

FAC comments

Part one

- Would prefer to see Oxford linked to just "city" rather than "city centre" per "in the city centre" in the lead, and perhaps "centre of the city" instead?
  - Done. Bencherlite ^Talk
- "Price began constructing buildings ..." himself, or on his command?
  - Well, not himself, as elderly clerics tend not to make the best manual labourers. How about "Price added new buildings"? Bencherlite ^Talk
- "in about 1620" not keen on "in" followed by "about".., why not just "around 1620"?
  - OK. Bencherlite ^Talk
- Worth linking the meaning of "principal" here first thing out?
  - Probably not, as not only is Principal (university) rather poor and basically a dicdef, but (more importantly) it's probably an obvious meaning (if the head was called Dean, or Warden, perhaps a link would be more useful. Bencherlite ^Talk
- "Reredos" article seems to imply two distinct meanings. Could you explain which one is relevant?

It seems pretty clear it is not "the back of an open hearth of a fireplace or a screen placed behind a table", no? Johnbod (talk) 17:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I meant which one of the definitions in the reredos article is pertinent here. I guess it's the "screen behind a table" since it's in the chapel, but to a non-expert, it might not be 100% clear. I'm not that well-read (as Bencherlite will attest, no doubt!) and have, myself, never heard of the expression. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The church meanings are in para 2. For a confusing subject it seems fairly clear to me. Johnbod (talk) 19:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

No big deal, just it is mentioned in the lead and has potential to confuse non experts as it has two distinct meanings, according to the link. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:12, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

<- worded it as "reredos behind the altar" for additional clarity. (You mean that there's another meaning?) Bencherlite ^Talk

- Lots of good illustrations but at my resolution, lots of text squashing, to be avoided by WP:MOS#Images, to whit: "Avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other."
  - Can we hold fire on this one until the text is finalised? We can then see whether images can be removed/shuffled, captions shortened etc, or whether the situation is bearable despite the wording of MOS. Bencherlite ^Talk
- Note 23 needs a full stop.
  - . Bencherlite ^Talk
- "Between 1571 and 1574 when he died..." just reads a little awkwardly to me without a comma or something to make it clear he died in one year...
  - "Between 1571 and his death in 1574..." Bencherlite ^Talk
- Quite a bit of overlinking on "s" and "d" for shillings and pence.
  - Now linked once each in "Foundation and buildings in 1571", "First quadrangle" and "Second quadrangle". Bencherlite ^Talk
- You cop out on buttery, linking to wiktionary...! Right a stub!
  - Someone had already written buttery (shop), and I'd missed it! Bencherlite ^Talk
- Last para of "Construction" of "First quandrangle" appears to mention Headington stone no less than five times in five sentences. Any way you could reduce the repetition?
  - Yes, reduced to two. Bencherlite ^Talk
- " The Elizabethan doorway was replaced with a new doorway..." doorway repetition too. Any chance of an elegant reword?
  - "A new doorway replaced the previous Elizabethan one"? Bencherlite ^Talk
- Relinking of shilling occurs again in "Later work" section.
  - as above. Bencherlite ^Talk
- And "fellow" suddenly gets a link here too - should this be linked earlier (perhaps I missed it?).
  - Linked in the lead (although I've moved the link to the first mention in the lead), and this is the first mention of the word in the text. Bencherlite ^Talk
- Is that the "Ernest Hardy" you really mean?
  - Blush... Got him right in the bibliography, m'lud... Bencherlite ^Talk
- 1837 engraving image lacks a caption.
  - Trailing "|" left in when moving the alt text from after the caption, didn't know it had that effect. Bencherlite ^Talk
- "gave £200[n 8] in 1791 and 1792 " - both times or once over the two years?
  - Once over the two years, it seems, so reworded to "gave £200 in total in 1791 and 1792". Bencherlite ^Talk
- "college 1852–1882" maybe I'm too wordy but what's wrong with "from 1852 to 1882"?
  - Nowt, done. Bencherlite ^Talk
- "Construction of the chapel, which is a Grade I listed building..." considering you've mentioned this in the previous sentence, albeit in a previous section, is the Grade I repeat necessary?
  - Probably not, so excised. Bencherlite ^Talk
- Be consistent with d.p./sig figs - (23 m) vs (16.0 m)
  - (16m)
- Chancel is linked in the lead and then mentioned a few times before being relinked on its second mention in the Chapel section.
  - Fixed. Bencherlite ^Talk
- Chapel section sees more relinking of s and d (but not £ at all!)
  - As above. Bencherlite ^Talk
- Could you move [57] two words and one semi-colon to the right?
  - Moved a little further (I was, for some reason, referencing the particular word "Gothic", and have moved it to the end of the sentence lest it look as though it's a reference for everything up to the semi-colon. Bencherlite ^Talk
- "Jairus' daughter" vs "Agas's map" vs "Mintons' encaustic tiles" - consistency on those s's after apostrophes...
  - Interesting. Mintons is the name of the article, so I used "Mintons'" as a plural possessive, but in fact the source says "Minston's" [sic], so I've put [[Mintons|Minton's]]. "Agas's map" is used in the sources and elsewhere, and is standard, but "Jairus' daughter" is one of those where both forms are used. A Google search shows broad split, perhaps more without the second "s", but to avoid the issue I've unpiped the link and put the Daughter of Jairus. Bencherlite ^Talk
- There's an inconsistency in the way you introduce principals - either the range of their tenure or the year they took the post. Is this deliberate?
  - Not particularly; I've added in a few more ranges. Bencherlite ^Talk
- "for a mere song" - I know it's a quote but is this language clear to non-English/Cockney speakers without a link?
  - Added a few introductory words ("He complained that the Jacobean woodwork had been sold for too little, saying that it had been..." etc). Bencherlite ^Talk

More to come. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Part deux

What's a "communion rail" - I'd think about linking this...
- Linked to altar rails. Bencherlite ^Talk
"but this was not done" - reads clumsily, to me at least.
- Reworded. Bencherlite ^Talk
"in Oxford to including kneeling" you know....
- Whoops. Bencherlite ^Talk
"painted glass windows in memory of Llewellyn Thomas (by Charles Kempe)" -I'd move the (by Charles Kempe) to behind "windows".
- I wouldn't, since it then messes up the pattern for the rest of the sentence. Bencherlite ^Talk
Is it painted glass (as you have it) or stained glass, as the link to all three manufacturers suggests as such?
- Painted glass is in fact a redirect to stained glass (a wikilink I've just added). "Painted windows" is what Hardy says, fwiw. Bencherlite ^Talk
"The lodgings, on the north side of the first quadrangle between the chapel (to the east) and the hall (to the west), were the last part of the first quadrangle to be built." - personal but the repeat of "The lodgings" from the previous sentence and the repeat of "first quadrangle" in this sentence doesn't read brilliantly to me.
- Reworded, to remove one instances. Bencherlite ^Talk
Ship St gate image has no caption.
- Same problem as before. Bencherlite ^Talk
"Much of the lodgings were ..." - "were" or "was"? singular in opening sentence of this para...
- "Lodgings was" would be wrong; but the lodgings are a listed building (singular), rather than being listed buildings. The joys of English... Bencherlite ^Talk
Worth explaining/linking "ball court"?
- If the source bothered to explain what was played there, I would too! Bencherlite ^Talk
In the plan image in the lead, quadrangle is abbreviated to "Quad" - so is this explained (for non-Oxbridge types) and why is it capitalised? Should other instances of "first quadrangle" etc really be "First Quadrangle"? Perhaps the darker blues do it differently....?! Similar with Jenkins' quote about the "quad". I think it just needs to be made clear that quad=quadrangle and whether any of them need to be capitalised. Done now, Tab??! ZZZzzzz....
- Good point; not sure I wrote the caption, as I've been trying to avoid using too many colloquisms like "quad" (missed the Jenkins one, though, didn't I?) but in any case, now fixed. The college website talks about "First Quad" and "Second Quad", etc, but there's no particular need to go down that road, is there? FWIW, the JCR officially renamed the quads "Milky Quad", "Bar Quad" and "Kid Quad" when I was there in honour of a lookalike JCR President, but I think the motion lapsed after a term... Bencherlite ^Talk
I would feel free to abbreviate Senior Common Room to SCR on its first use, and then use SCR subsequently. Esp. as you do it for JCR.
- Done. Bencherlite ^Talk
"listed buildings (Grade I)" just be consistent with this and say "Grade I listed buildings".
- Done. Bencherlite ^Talk
Hating to relink, but consider relinking "Bodedern" in the Fellows' Library section - it's been a while...
- Done. Bencherlite ^Talk
"to remedy these and other problems " - commas after these and problems?
- "to remedy these problems, and others" would be neater, I think. Bencherlite ^Talk
"80 metres (260 ft)" consistent unit designation please.
- If by this you mean that sometimes I give the measurement in feet first and sometimes in metres, I'm afraid I'm stuck with my inconsistent sources from different eras. Bencherlite ^Talk
Actually, why is the "length" of that fire wrecked building important? What about its height or depth?!
- It's all I have to show size, alas; it also gives an idea, I suppose, of the groundspace that the college had to work with once it was out of the way. Bencherlite ^Talk
Why isn't Doulting linked like the other stones?
- I'd piped a link to "[[Doulting Stone Quarry|Doulting]] stone", now better piped as [[Doulting Stone Quarry|Doulting stone]]. Bencherlite ^Talk
"Clipsham limestone was used here too" - strikes me that in general your sections are independent of one another to a certain degree, hence the repetition of principal's tenures, linking of shillings/pence etc. Should you therefore use "too" in this opening para of a new section?
- Changed to "too, as elsewhere in the third quadrangle". Bencherlite ^Talk
"1.8M" - is M now conventional for million in terms of currency? I guess I'm more used to seeing £1.8m...
- MOS:NUM permits, although I too would have expected a lower-case "m" to be mentioned (it was one of MF's copy-edits, and he does know his stuff!) Bencherlite ^Talk
Bibliography - should you use an en-dash rather than forward slash for year range?
- That's the style the college used for a few years, before reverting to a single year. Bencherlite ^Talk
Ref 144 has a weird "p. p. 4" thing going on...
- I keep forgetting which cite templates include a "p" for you and which don't... Bencherlite ^Talk

The Rambling Man (talk) 17:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Many thanks for the nitpicking, very helpful. Anything else? Bencherlite ^Talk 23:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Spanish?

Is it only me, or is there a paragraph in Spanish? just Eleos 11:47, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

There was, but it's gone now... if you still see it, try purging your cache. Bencherlite ^Talk 13:28, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

That did the trick! Thanks! just Eleos 15:44, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

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Translation into Chinese Wikipedia

The version 20:34, 7 November 2019‎ Neils51 of this article is translated into Chinese Wikipedia to expand an existing article.--Wing (talk) 06:35, 6 February 2020 (UTC)