Talk:2024 Columbia University pro-Palestinian campus occupation

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Section header "Allegations of Antisemitism"[edit]

@Sawerchessread: Can you explain you changing the header to this? The protests have included incidents of antisemitism, not merely allegations of them. BilledMammal (talk) 00:51, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The second paragraph contains arguments from some that protests are not inherently antisemitic.

Allegations may be true or false, and some def are.

Titling it "Antisemitism" suggests that the question is solved, when it is controversial to suggest the protest as a whole is antisemitic. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 00:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about "Incidents of antisemitism"? That should address my concerns that we are suggesting that it is possible there have been no incidents, and your concern that we are suggesting the protest as a whole is antisemitic. BilledMammal (talk) 00:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

no still. Nobody imagines that because the title is allegations of antisemitism, that the incidents are not real.

I thought for a second maybe making a subsection about incidents of antisemitism, and arguments against antisemitism, but there isnt enough material to do that.

Also as reference, Anti-Zionism#Allegations of antisemitism uses allegations of antisemitism. There are clearly very antisemitic parts of anti-zionism that are addressed, and which are believed to be clearly antisemitic in that section. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 01:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Precedent isn’t an applicable argument on Wikipedia - what is the issue with "Incidents of antisemitism"? Unless I have misunderstood your comment, it doesn't explain what you see as wrong with it.

Is there an alternative that you would support that makes it clear, in the section header, that antisemitism has occurred and it is not merely allegations? BilledMammal (talk) 01:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is antisemitism? Because it seems a lot of anti-Israel things are described as such. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:47, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that there have been no incidents of genuine antisemitism during the protests at Columbia? BilledMammal (talk) 13:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based on RS and content, there have been incidents of antisemitism from protesters and counter-protesters, as well as allegations from Jewish students, denied by Jewish protesters. Personally I think the section should be "Incidents and allegations of antisemitism", as neither simply incidents nor allegations is accurate here. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 13:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds reasonable to me; I support that. BilledMammal (talk) 18:10, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The incidents of antisemitism happened outside of the encampment, the accusations are more about what happened inside. I wouldnt support that as a title because it is prejudicial and also overly long. nableezy - 18:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If that's the case it should remain as allegations. I assumed the examples provided were related to the university, ie the article, if not, then the content should be removed. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 19:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They’re related to the university; most took place on campus, and most involved students. I think Nableezy is saying that they didn’t take place within the encampment - but the scope of the article isn’t limited to what took place within the encampment so I’m not sure why that’s relevant. BilledMammal (talk) 19:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Its about the campus occupation, which includes the encampment and the takeover of Hamilton Hall, not all protests that have occurred inside or outside the gates of the university. That some people outside the gates held antisemitic signs or said antisemitic things isnt in dispute, but as far as I am aware there are no reported as fact occurrences of antisemitism within this protest, that being the occupation outside the library and then Hamilton Hall. nableezy - 19:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This, the article title is quite clear here. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

During the past few days, videos taken inside the encampment have shown students chanting “Zionists not allowed here,” “Go back to Poland,” and other students calling for “10,000 October 7ths.” Times of Israel. The first is concerning - "Islamists not allowed here" would almost certainly be a dog whistle for those with Islamophobic views - but the second and third are clearly antisemitic. BilledMammal (talk) 20:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We now include the ToI reporting this. I dont think that single source elevates this past "allegations" or "accusations", and I also question how the TOI is better placed to report about a university in New York City than local news sources. nableezy - 20:31, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't and it isn't. Best just to attribute the source and move on imo. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

claims of anti-zionism as antisemitism are highly contentious. see New_antisemitism#Definitions and arguments for and against the concept.

The second and third chants by some of the students are clearly anti-semitic though. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 04:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t see how the third is but don’t think it matters too much for our purposes either way. Supporting violence against Israel isn’t definitionally anti-semitic. nableezy - 12:14, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of Guardian claims[edit]

@Nableezy:

You recently removed coverage in the Guardian of antisemitic incidents, saying "revert, guardian reports that as incidents on campus, not part of the occupation". However, the scope of the article goes beyond events that occur in the encampment and Hamilton Hall, and covers related events including statements and protests. For example, we cover counter-protests that stop outside the campus, and we cover faculty members protesting the response to the protest.

In addition, The Guardian article puts those incidents in the context of the encampment. BilledMammal (talk) 20:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the campus occupation, not every demonstration in upper Manhattan since October 7th. And no, the context of the Guardian article is antisemitism on US campuses, not the encampment. What it says is It’s hard to deny that there have been antisemitic incidents on the campus, including the targeting of students, probably Jewish, called “Nazi bitches” and told to “go back to Poland”. One female Jewish student described a masked pro-Palestinian demonstrator confronting her as she walked across campus one evening. She said he got extremely close and menacingly demanded to know if she was a Zionist. After that, she stopped wearing a Star of David necklace. Not every instance of antisemitism across campus is relevant here, which is not about antisemitism on Columbia, or all protests related to the war on Columbia. This article is about the campus occupation protest. nableezy - 20:30, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have a feeling that isn't going to be a productive line of discussion, so I'll just point out that a third of the article is directly about the Columbia campus occupation, and most of the rest relates to that third, and leave it at that.

However, can you explain where you draw the line? Below, you support including in 2024 Columbia University pro-Palestinian campus occupation#Allegations of antisemitism an incident that took place outside the university gates - but here, you oppose the inclusion of an incident that took place inside the university campus? BilledMammal (talk) 20:47, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Point out whatever you like, but the Guardian does not say any of this happened as a part of this demonstration, as opposed to random acts across campus over months. No, I support the usage of Columbia Spectator, if you have some other reason for removing content you should say so, but your edit summary objected to a perfectly fine source and nothing else. nableezy - 22:51, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So you support the removal of that source on the same grounds you support the removal of the Guardian source? BilledMammal (talk) 22:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing I said was the edit summary claimed that this source was "insufficient" was incorrect, that the source is completely acceptable. If the material it is being cited for is unrelated to the topic of this article then that is a different issue and if that is true then yes it should be removed as not relevant. nableezy - 23:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Columbia Spectator[edit]

Is an excellent source and has been cited on this topic by a ton of other reliable sources. Removing it needs more than a vague claim of insufficiency. nableezy - 20:27, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted, and added WP:INTEXT, but not convinced it needs it after all. It could be considered bias since it's the student newspaper and the protests are predominantly by students though. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:32, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are more than enough professional sources on this topic, some of whom - after doing suitable fact checking - repeat relevant information from the student media, and per WP:RSSM we should prefer such sources. This paper in particular was the one that claimed the NYPD used tear gas when clearing Hamilton Hall; this claim was later proven false, a product of inexperienced student reporters and a lack of the editorial control necessary to verify facts before releasing them. BilledMammal (talk) 20:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I just said in the topic above: Best just to attribute the source and move on imo, if it is bias or marginally reliable. Either that or take the discussion to the noticeboard. If there are "more than enough professional sources on this" then add the content to the article using reliable sources. No need to argue your point here. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Every news outlet on the planet has misreported something, some take years to admit it some correct it within hours or days. Your example shows its reliability, as the reporting of a developing story later had corrections and updates (here). You are free to raise your proposition that the student paper at the university whose School of Journalism awards the Pulitzers is unreliable at RSN. nableezy - 22:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

multiple sources have praised student newsletters and papers as having significantly useful and more in-depth coverage of the protests compared to national media. and multiple sources have argued that student reporters have been courageous for documenting the protests. id argue that suggests that most student newspapers are reliable until proven otherwise. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 02:35, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]