Talk:Ōyama Sutematsu

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Birth name & date[edit]

The current draft of the article says she was born Yamakawa Saki (山川 さき) on March 16, 1860, but there is no citation for that information. The only source I've found which mentions a birth date and name is Nimura's book, which says her first name was Sakiko and the birthday was February 24. I am updating the article to that information for now, but welcome additional sourcing to explain or resolve the conflicting information. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 00:40, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Noting other sources[edit]

The following don't seem like good suggestions for "further reading" to the general encyclopedia audience, but they may be worth investigating to improve the article, so I am moving them from there to here. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 20:46, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hotta, Eri (2013). Japan 1941. New York: Alfred A. Knopf. pp. 83–85.
  • Methodist Episcopal Church (1895). "Three Japanese Girls." The Heathen Woman's Friend. Vol. Vol. XXVII, July 1895, No.1. Boston: Woman's Foreign Missionary Society of the Methodist Episcopal Church. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help)

GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Ōyama Sutematsu/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 08:23, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I will post my comments soon :) Sainsf (talk · contribs) 08:24, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So sorry for the delay.. I got really busy with a few articles. Well-written article and on a very interesting topic too :) Here are all my comments: Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 04:04, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

General
  • No dablinks, broken external links, copyvio issues
  • There is a bunch of duplinks. You can view them using this tool and link the items only on first mention.
  • Sourcing: Sourcing is decent and reliable with well-formatted citations, though the ISBN is needed for the 2015 book and the date should be mmddyy.
  • Inline citations missing for the following, which can make these appear unsourced:
  • Their father Yamakawa Shigekata died in 1860, the year of Yamakawa Sakiko's birth, and her eldest brother Hiroshi became head of their family.
  • checkY This information seems clearly implied by the fact that Shigekata seems to have died before Sutematsu's birth, and that Hiroshi is making decisions on behalf of the whole family (and later the whole clan) by the time of the Boshin war, but I really can't find any reliable sourcing that clarifies the timing or does more than imply these things. So, for now, I have simply removed this sentence. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 08:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This invasion marked the beginning of the Battle of Aizu, a monthlong siege.
  • and worked again as a volunteer nurse during the Russo-Japanese War from 1904 to 1905.
  • and died of related pneumonia on February 18, 1919.
  • checkY ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 20:08, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm going to need to look beyond Nimura for the sourcing here, which is why I've delayed. I also want to make a note for myself here to find more definitive sourcing for her birth name -- the sources I've seen say she was named Sakiko at birth, but another editor changed it to Saki in the lead, and changed the Japanese too; I think they have access to some kinds of Japanese-language materials that I don't. So maybe my English sources are mistaken somehow, and other sources can clarify.
  • No problem, but this needs to be done soon if this has to pass. Try contacting the editor. Sainsf (t · c) 17:46, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • checkY I consulted a Japanese-speaking friend and I am now happy with how the article treats the childhood nickname Saki. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 08:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further reading and external links usually come after References in an article
Prose and coverage
  • I was wondering if the first line of the lead could shorten the part in the brackets as it seems a bit too long till we get to the end of it.. may be omit a few bits of info already visible in the infobox alongside?
  • checkY I think I've addressed this with my rewrite of the lead. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 06:22, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Citations shouldn't be in the lead unless there is a controversial claim, here it may be the fact that she was the first Japanese lady to get a degree. And all facts of the lead must be mentioned in the article's main body
  • The lead could be expanded by a few more lines or even a short paragraph to include major details
Looked at the article length again.. the lead should be proportionately long, which means at least two good paragraphs including all major points of the article (WP:MOSLEAD explains this). Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 05:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • checkY I think the lead is now a good reflection of the article overall. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 06:22, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Excellent job! Just a few things. "Japanese woman" is repeated in the first line, and it would be good to include the year of the siege. Sainsf (t · c) 17:46, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • She was born Yamakawa Sakiko A pronoun doesn't look nice when you start an article (main text). Take her full name at birth and say "X was born on ..."
  • After her first mention by full name in the lead and main text, call her any one of these names consistently throughout the article "Yamakawa" or "Sakiko"
  • Ah, I see how I mis-interpreted MOS:CHANGEDNAME -- it's MOS:SURNAME that's relevant here, Any subject who has had their surname changed should be referred to by their most commonly used name. If their most commonly used name does include their prior surname, and you're discussing a period of their life before the surname change, refer to them by their prior surname. In other words, when discussing the early lives of Hillary and Bill Clinton, use "Rodham met Clinton while they were students at Yale", referring to Hillary using her then-current surname. But I am still not entirely sure how to proceed. I think her most common name is Yamakawa Sutematsu -- but it feels odd to call her Yamakawa in the sections after her marriage. It also makes me question whether the article itself should be renamed to Yamakawa instead of Ōyama. Would you advise that I change everything to Yamakawa?
  • Oh, I see I misunderstood a bit too and I should have clarified my point. The article name should ideally be the name she lived her life with till her death, so that's correct. When you start with the main text, you start with her full name at birth and refer to her by her maiden surname till we come to her married life. From there we use her new surname, which is the one in the article title. I hope it is clear now :) Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 05:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • checkY I've gone through and made sure she is called Yamakawa or Oyama throughout. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 08:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Their father Yamakawa Shigekata You can just call him Shigekata
  • A link for neo-Confucian?
  • In places where a certain ref is used to support a set of consecutive lines, you can put it just at the end of the last line instead of putting it for every line.
  • Do you think this is mandatory? I can see how it is less visually appealing to repeat refs, but in the long term I think it is useful for each sentence to have its own ref, so that the sourcing doesn't get lost or ambiguous if the paragraph changes. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 04:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is what I have editors advise to do generally, to avoid the repetitive look. Anyway it is understood that if one (/more) source is mentioned after a particular bunch of lines, then the source supports those facts. I agree with the trouble while rearranging things, I have faced that myself, but repetitive refs are not commonly used either way. Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 05:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • checkYI went through and "commented out" any repeated refs. That way the article doesn't look cluttered, but if someone is editing the paragraph they can still see the sources that support each individual statement. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 08:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • to the newly-created Tonami District This is a redlink, may be add where it is in the present day to give a non-Japanese reader an idea?
  • I would like some brief details of how she got selected for the Iwakura Mission, especially as she made it after a very tough life and a war.
  • checkY Glad you asked about this! I find it really interesting that they had so much trouble finding girls to send. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 09:40, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, I was really interested to see more about this beautiful initiative in the article :) Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 05:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ("thrown-away pine tree");.[4][20]the mother gave up Some text cleanup needed here
  • I did my best with this, though there's some unsourced material added by another editor (about the good luck of the pine motif) which I'm not sure if I should remove. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 09:40, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you, that's much better. A few things though. The paragraph should end with an inline citation for the pine motif part. In this part: while awaiting for (待つ, matsu) her safe return "for" should be removed. I also thought of a better rephrase for this: wished her good luck by choosing the second character of the new name meaning pine (松, matsu), or one from among Three Friends of Winter → make a separate line by removing "and", say "The second character (松, matsu) means pine, or one from among Three Friends of Winter, suggesting she wished her daughter good luck (on her voyage/travel?)" I feel this clarifies better that the pine signifies good luck. Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 05:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • checkY I've further refined how this is written, and found a source for the "three friends of winter" part. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 08:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding the use of boldface throughout the article wherever new names crop up, the WP:MOSBOLD says "The most common use of boldface is to highlight the first occurrence of the title word/phrase of the article in the lead section".
  • checkY I've addressed this in a basic way by removing the bolding from throughout the article, and will also try to follow MOS:CHANGEDNAME better in the lede when I revise it. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 04:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • were moved to New Haven, Connecticut.[31] In New Heaven Haven or Heaven?
  • Yamakawa graduated with from Vassar College Typo?
  • when he proposed a second time Any details of how he came across her or the first proposal?
  • For now I've added what I could find about their courtship. Oddly, Nimura (her main biographer) doesn't say anything about the first proposal or how they met. They don't seem to have known each other well even at the second proposal, so he might have proposed before they even really met. I'll keep looking. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 09:40, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ōyama Iwao should probably be called Iwao consistently after the first mention
  • Since Iwao is his first name, shouldn't he be Ōyama? I call him "Ōyama Iwao" a lot to disambiguate him from Ōyama Sutematsu. I guess the full picture of what to call him will be clearer after Sutematsu's name is consistent throughout the article. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 09:40, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmm I see. I, like many others, clearly have difficulty understanding Japanese names :) No problem, call him by the full name consistently. Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 05:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • checkY He's referred to by his last name or his full name everywhere, no more uses of just the first name. I think this makes some of the paragraphs about their children and marriage sound a little weird (repeating both full names a lot) but I couldn't find a more elegant way to write them. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 08:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ōyama's old friend Alice Bacon Bacon will do as she was mentioned just a para before. Call her Bacon consistently afterwards
  • The first pic in gallery could do with some description like when the photo is from, similar to the other pics
  • One more point, See also should only have links not already included in the text.

Discussion[edit]

Sainsf, thank you so much for these comments! I will work to improve the article based on your feedback over the next little while (perhaps a week or two), and let you know when it is ready for another look. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 01:19, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sainsf, I've started addressing some of these, and it seemed helpful to "tick" them off in your bulleted list above -- if that wasn't appropriate, please let me know and I'll track my progress another way. I also raised a question about her name. I think Yamakawa Sutematsu is her most common name, but it still feels odd to call her Yamakawa in the sections after she is married. And, the article is named Ōyama Sutematsu! So perhaps it should call her Ōyama throughout...?? ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 04:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Good job so far :) No problem with the ticks, I think they are a great way of marking things off. I have addressed the name point above. Cheers, Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 05:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Oulfis: Nearly 10 days without any updates here. Sainsf (t · c) 01:39, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Sainsf: Indeed, my apologies -- got sidetracked by some other shiny editing... I will likely make some more progress this weekend. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 03:22, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Sainsf: I have finally addressed all of your points above! Many thanks for your patience while I have poked along with this article, and all of your attention and feedback. I think it has really improved! Would you be comfortable assessing it as a "Good Article"? Or do you see any further issues? ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 08:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for all your efforts, the article looks excellent now. Though this is not a must for GA, I would recommend removing a few images and aligning most to the right per MOS:IMAGELOCATION so that the text does not get sandwiched between them and headings don't get pushed to the right. After all the work we have done here, the article is now ready for promotion :) I will just put this nice link over here [1] that I came across a few days back.. it made me so happy that I came to know about this remarkable lady from your awesome article. Well done! Sainsf (t · c) 09:26, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Additional note: I am not sure where to list this article in the WP:GA categories. You can list it yourself wherever you think appropriate, just make sure the talk page GA template mentions the right category. Cheers, Sainsf (t · c) 09:33, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 14:33, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(
)
Ōyama Sutematsu (on left)
Ōyama Sutematsu (on left)
  • ... that Ōyama Sutematsu (pictured) was eleven years old when the Japanese government sent her on the Iwakura Mission to receive a Western education on behalf of Japan? Source: "In December 1871, when she was eleven years old, Yamakawa was sent to the United States for study, as part of the Iwakura Mission."
    • ALT1:... that the first Japanese woman to earn a college degree (pictured) married a general who had besieged her hometown?  Source: "his military activity included serving as an artilleryman during the bombardment of Yamakawa's hometown of Aizu. He later liked to joke that Yamakawa had made the bullet which struck him during that battle."

Improved to Good Article status by Oulfis (talk). Self-nominated at 09:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC).[reply]

  • Oh, I can't figure out how to add it to the nomination now, but there are several really interesting images of Ōyama, such as this one which could be nice to include. (Sorry, I'm new to DYK and only just learning the ropes!) ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 09:29, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I added the image. Please feel free to change the caption. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 23:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Oulfis: Welcome to DYK! New enough promotion of a GA. QPQ exempt. Image in public domain and allowed for use. One thing: you must have a citation in the article at the sentence that justifies your hook claim. For ALT0 (the main hook), there is no citation on the accompanying sentence. ALT1 is fine (assuming good faith on the offline source) as it has citations there, but I want you to also be able to fix ALT0 first. Raymie (t • c) 06:01, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you! It is addressed now. The detail on their departure is from p 62 of Nimura. Looking at these again the first one is maybe "hookier" if worded like so:
  • ALT2:... that Ōyama Sutematsu (pictured), the first Japanese woman to earn a college degree, was eleven years old when the Japanese government sent her on the Iwakura Mission to receive an American education?
But I am happy with any hook which seems interesting to someone who isn't already familiar with Ōyama. Let me know if there is anything else I should do for this nomination, and thank you for reviewing it! ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 18:17, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Oulfis: Perhaps removing the second instance of "Japanese" from ALT2 would improve the flow and remove redundancy. ALT0/ALT2/etc. are okay AGF with the added citation. Raymie (t • c) 06:20, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Raymie: Hm, I think the second instance of "Japanese" in ALT2 is necessary -- she could have been sponsored by the American government, for example -- but I think there are other ways to improve the wording. I've tried a few others below but I think there are diminishing returns for continuing to fiddle with the wording. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 21:35, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ALT3:... that Ōyama Sutematsu (pictured), the first Japanese woman to earn a college degree, was eleven years old when she was sent with the Iwakura Mission to receive an American education on behalf of Japan?
  • ALT4:... that Ōyama Sutematsu (pictured) was eleven years old when she was sent with the Iwakura Mission to receive an American education on behalf of Japan?
  • I'd prefer ALT4 of those two. with preference for ALT1 or ALT4. Raymie (t • c) 21:50, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Spot the contradiction[edit]

...her options were limited, especially because she could not read or write Japanese...

...did not attend school, but was taught to read and write at home... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.95.85.247 (talk) 11:22, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nimura's biography indicates that Sutematsu quickly forgot how to read and write Japanese once Japanese texts were no longer available to her; she in fact only barely retained the ability to speak Japanese, and spent several months after her return to Japan struggling to communicate. I suppose I could try to find the page number to add that clarification to the article. I personally find this one of the interesting contradictions inherent in the mission she was sent on, that in order for her to fully learn American ways she was intentionally deprived of Japanese knowledge (eg making sure she lived separately from Shige so they couldn't speak Japanese at home) with the seemingly-predictable outcome that life in Japan was initially very difficult for her. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 21:40, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Five girls sent on Iwakura Mission[edit]

CadnTheadn, I don’t understand why you are changing the lead to say she was one of six girls sent on the Iwakura Mission. The lead is meant to summarize the information cited in the body of the article, and the body of the article clearly states with citations that there were five girls. We even have a photo of the five of them! Can you explain why you think your change is more accurate? With sources that can be used to revise the body of the article if needed? ~ L 🌸 (talk) 18:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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